Is a compressor of any real value in fast rock music?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='escholl' post='353247' date='Dec 12 2008, 11:11 PM']depending on how it's set, compression will add sustain or give the illusion of a punchier sound.[/quote]

I suppose you could look upon that as problem solving but I've never had a problem with a lack of sustain or punch since I've owned decent basses (though I have been quite lucky on that front). Cannot both those issues be solved at source with the vast majority of instruments by changing how you play the notes?

Alex

Edited December 13, 2008 by alexclaber

[escholl]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='353537' date='Dec 13 2008, 01:35 PM']I suppose you could look upon that as problem solving but I've never had a problem with a lack of sustain or punch since I've owned decent basses (though I have been quite lucky on that front). Cannot both those issues be solved at source with the vast majority of instruments by changing how you play the notes?

Alex[/quote]

Well, yes, sustain can probably be resolved just by having a better instrument....it's mostly guitarists who use compressors for sustain anyways. I can't afford a better bass, my compressor was certainly a good deal cheaper than your RIM bass, although if you ever want to swap just let me know

For the other thing probably not...by setting the attack of the compressor right, it can be set to kick in after the initial attack of the note; this effectively lets each note cut through a loud mix, but without the end result being immense levels of bass. It's probably possible to produce a similar result just by playing around with different bass/amp combinations, but the same effect wouldn't be reproduced in terms of dynamics.

I thought of another use as well; compressors can even out volume swells from effects like phasers that otherwise might result in an un-even swelling sound, particularly in the lower frequencies.

[alexclaber]

Turning up your amp and plucking more softly will get more sustain from any bass - you don't need to buy a new one! And I've always found that if you're short of punch the solution is to shift your plucking point towards the bridge. Definitely the first things to try before considering additional or better gear to solve those problems.

Alex

[escholl]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='354187' date='Dec 14 2008, 12:59 PM']Turning up your amp and plucking more softly will get more sustain from any bass - you don't need to buy a new one! And I've always found that if you're short of punch the solution is to shift your plucking point towards the bridge. Definitely the first things to try before considering additional or better gear to solve those problems.

Alex[/quote]


Maybe, but that doesn't work with some styles, techniques, basses, sounds, etc.


For instance, neither of those would work for me

[chrismuzz]

I agree with escholl.

I play fast metal, using a very aggressive fingerstyle, mixed with a little bit of tapping. It's VERY difficult to get tapping on higher strings the same volume as a low A! After 7 years I've finally decided to begin experimenting with a compressor. (a SUPER cheap Behringer DC9 for £16. If I don't like it, no harm done!) Got my first gig with it on Wednesday so I'll post my results.

[chrismuzz]

3 words... Major Tone Suck!! Oh well at least my low A string didn't destroy the venue this time lol.

[Clarky]

I think you should talk to 51m0n on the subject of compressors. He convinced me

Here is 51m0n:

[attachment=65532:snake2_1388468i.jpg]

[chrismuzz]

Must..... Increase.... Compression.... Ratio!!!!!

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='escholl' post='352790' date='Dec 12 2008, 03:15 PM']compressors serve a wide range of useful functions -- hence why i use one -- and don't cover up bad technique nearly as much as a distortion or delay can.

why do you think guitarists use distortion and delay so much? [/quote]

As someone who's primarily a guitarist, I'm offended.

You forgot reverb!

[dan670844]

[quote name='Clarky' post='314944' date='Oct 26 2008, 10:50 AM']Hi all, am I missing something here? I have an Aphex Punch Factory. I play pick-style in a fairly fast punk band with lots of 16th notes. Try as I might I can't really notice the pedal doing anything other than boost the volume. I had assumed it would even out peaks/troughs in my playing, as slap bassists swear by these. Is it just the style I play or are these just too subtle for old rock gits like me?[/quote]

Havent tried one of these but i guess from reading about it its a bit to subtle also note that if you get a stomp box one 18volters are always better, this is illustrated by the difference between the ashdown compressor and the the old trace smx the ashdown is pretty much the same idea duel band etc probably even the same circuit but its pants being 9v it has no headroom the trace is 18volt and it sorts bass out pretty well. The ashdown is great for guitar though!
With compressors I only ever compress the lows never the highs, this is especially true for your rock playing as if you compress the highs a lot you will loose the attack and the definition of each note you play. the ebs is also a very good pedal but it takes a good while to get the best out of it. Behringer dare i say make a rack compressor and its acutally very good, suprisingly. Save yourself a few quid and see if you can get an old smx pedal off ebay they turn up quite often, bought three of there from between 20 and 30 quid. If you get one just remember this the led glows red when you AREN'T feeding enough signal into it and NOT TOO MUCH! you wont overload it as i said it can take what you throw at it. I use a passive bass and i have found the best way to use a stomp box one is in the post preamp effects loop as i guess is has more signal to play with.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='chrismuzz' post='1045185' date='Dec 2 2010, 03:08 PM']3 words... Major Tone Suck!! Oh well at least my low A string didn't destroy the venue this time lol.[/quote]

From a £16 pedal, are you surprised? Any pedal that only cost £16 won't be great for your tone, even bypassed. The better the compressor, the more natural sounding it'll be. That's why some studio compressors go for thousands.

[chrismuzz]

Yeah I wasn't expecting much haha. But I thought it'd be ok for a band setting in the meantime while I'm on a budget. I'll leave it in my setup for now while I get to grips with using compression... Plus it'll push me to save for something like an ebs multicomp haha

[dan670844]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1045521' date='Dec 2 2010, 07:34 PM']Havent tried one of these but i guess from reading about it its a bit to subtle also note that if you get a stomp box one 18volters are always better, this is illustrated by the difference between the ashdown compressor and the the old trace smx the ashdown is pretty much the same idea duel band etc probably even the same circuit but its pants being 9v it has no headroom the trace is 18volt and it sorts bass out pretty well. The ashdown is great for guitar though!
With compressors I only ever compress the lows never the highs, this is especially true for your rock playing as if you compress the highs a lot you will loose the attack and the definition of each note you play. the ebs is also a very good pedal but it takes a good while to get the best out of it. Behringer dare i say make a rack compressor and its acutally very good, suprisingly. Save yourself a few quid and see if you can get an old smx pedal off ebay they turn up quite often, bought three of there from between 20 and 30 quid. If you get one just remember this the led glows red when you AREN'T feeding enough signal into it and NOT TOO MUCH! you wont overload it as i said it can take what you throw at it. I use a passive bass and i have found the best way to use a stomp box one is in the post preamp effects loop as i guess is has more signal to play with.[/quote]


For a good live sound i have heard some people in addition to a good compressor use filters (particularly on the low end), gates and expanders they probably work quite well together he he! but maybe the compressor goes on the end of that lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[samuel]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1045521' date='Dec 2 2010, 07:34 PM']Havent tried one of these but i guess from reading about it its a bit to subtle also note that if you get a stomp box one 18volters are always better, this is illustrated by the difference between the ashdown compressor and the the old trace smx the ashdown is pretty much the same idea duel band etc probably even the same circuit but its pants being 9v it has no headroom the trace is 18volt and it sorts bass out pretty well. The ashdown is great for guitar though!
With compressors I only ever compress the lows never the highs, this is especially true for your rock playing as if you compress the highs a lot you will loose the attack and the definition of each note you play. the ebs is also a very good pedal but it takes a good while to get the best out of it. Behringer dare i say make a rack compressor and its acutally very good, suprisingly. Save yourself a few quid and see if you can get an old smx pedal off ebay they turn up quite often, bought three of there from between 20 and 30 quid. If you get one just remember this the led glows red when you AREN'T feeding enough signal into it and NOT TOO MUCH! you wont overload it as i said it can take what you throw at it. I use a passive bass and i have found the best way to use a stomp box one is in the post preamp effects loop as i guess is has more signal to play with.[/quote]

hey dan, would you be able to give us some advice on getting the best out of the ebs?

thanks dude

[dan670844]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1045600' date='Dec 2 2010, 08:27 PM']From a £16 pedal, are you surprised? Any pedal that only cost £16 won't be great for your tone, even bypassed. The better the compressor, the more natural sounding it'll be. That's why some studio compressors go for thousands.[/quote]


he he if only there was compressor pedal for 'live' that does far more than just squash, perhaps you need a compressor pedal that splits your bass signal into high and low and apply's different ratios to each as the lows need a gentle slow squash and the highs a hard an fast one, also it would be really great if it expanded the quiet bits to push em in the 'zone' then it would be really cool if you had a sweepable filter so you could tune where it hit exactly where you want it......... what someone made one 20 odd years ago..... and it was the bollo% it was green and mean.

[dan670844]

[quote name='samuel' post='1045733' date='Dec 2 2010, 10:08 PM']hey dan, would you be able to give us some advice on getting the best out of the ebs?

thanks dude[/quote]


Thats a big question, you have to ask yourself what you want it to do for you, i.e. what part of your signal do you want it to work on?............. my pref for compression live is i like it to work on the low end i tend to leave the high end alone. But thats my pref. yours maybe different. I have used the ebs out of the box on the low end of my signal, as my amp can split the high and low end of the signal, i used the ebs on the low part. alternatively you can can use the pedal on your full signal but best results can be achieved by going into its gubbins and tuning the trimmer pots inside to get it tuned right so it attacks your high and low signal just right. but make a note of the initial settings check out the ebs forum for advice and don't attempt it if you aren't confident. This is why the ebs is good as it allows you to adjust how the compressor attacks your high and low signal. my humble opinion but it don't really sound that great on the full signal stock. I like to compress the lows live as it tends to give me more of a solid punchy low end. If you can get your pedal working on this portion of your signal i think you will be impressed with the results. The lows will project more and feel tighter, sweet, (i adjusted the high trimmer pot so it didnt touch the signal at all) If you are doing this you don't want such a hard attack from the compressor the lows like it gentle. But you will really quickly find the sweet spot.
One thing to note and I dont know why the thershold which the ebs works on tends to drift after a while and it will sound different, strange, so you will have to open her up a tune her in again. Thats why a still use the old trace smx pedal most of the time, its a piece of pee to get the sound you want just load it up with enough signal, low compressor up halfway job done. They are a bit noisy by modern standards though. I reckon the answer the question of the thread though the punch factory would probably sound pretty good if you only fed your low end into it as its nice and gentle. If i come across one i will try it.

to further enhance your sound in addition to the compressor you could have a look a some filters which work on a certain bit of your sound. I tend to use filters on the low end at 30hz and 50hz depending on what speaker cabs i am using, i use these to cut everything of below these freq this also can tighten your sound up nicely as it feeds the speakers with sound they can produce, sharpens up the low end nicely

then you could have a look at a noise gate on the high end of your sound to get rid of the hissy crap, set every so easy opening

Fleeping ell i am giving all my secrets away.........................

Edited December 3, 2010 by dan670844

[dan670844]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1045820' date='Dec 2 2010, 11:25 PM']Thats a big question, you have to ask yourself what you want it to do for you, i.e. what part of your signal do you want it to work on?............. my pref for compression live is i like it to work on the low end i tend to leave the high end alone. But thats my pref. yours maybe different. I have used the ebs out of the box on the low end of my signal, as my amp can split the high and low end of the signal, i used the ebs on the low part. alternatively you can can use the pedal on your full signal but best results can be achieved by going into its gubbins and tuning the trimmer pots inside to get it tuned right so it attacks your high and low signal just right. but make a note of the initial settings check out the ebs forum for advice and don't attempt it if you aren't confident. This is why the ebs is good as it allows you to adjust how the compressor attacks your high and low signal. my humble opinion but it don't really sound that great on the full signal stock. I like to compress the lows live as it tends to give me more of a solid punchy low end. If you can get your pedal working on this portion of your signal i think you will be impressed with the results. The lows will project more and feel tighter, sweet, (i adjusted the high trimmer pot so it didnt touch the signal at all) If you are doing this you don't want such a hard attack from the compressor the lows like it gentle. But you will really quickly find the sweet spot.
One thing to note and I dont know why the thershold which the ebs works on tends to drift after a while and it will sound different, strange, so you will have to open her up a tune her in again. Thats why a still use the old trace smx pedal most of the time, its a piece of pee to get the sound you want just load it up with enough signal, low compressor up halfway job done. They are a bit noisy by modern standards though. I reckon the answer the question of the thread though the punch factory would probably sound pretty good if you only fed your low end into it as its nice and gentle. If i come across one i will try it.

to further enhance your sound in addition to the compressor you could have a look a some filters which work on a certain bit of your sound. I tend to use filters on the low end at 30hz and 50hz depending on what speaker cabs i am using, i use these to cut everything of below these freq this also can tighten your sound up nicely as it feeds the speakers with sound they can produce, sharpens up the low end nicely

then you could have a look at a noise gate on the high end of your sound to get rid of the hissy crap, set every so easy opening

Fleeping ell i am giving all my secrets away......................... [/quote]


Forgot to say these are the dog bollox

[url="http://www.fealabs.com/products/DBOC-SMX-0001.html"]http://www.fealabs.com/products/DBOC-SMX-0001.html[/url]

smx for the 21st century!

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Clarky' post='1045191' date='Dec 2 2010, 03:13 PM']I think you should talk to 51m0n on the subject of compressors. He convinced me

Here is 51m0n:

[attachment=65532:snake2_1388468i.jpg][/quote]


And + 1 for talking to 51m0n; the sound I'm now getting from my DBX compressor is just amazing thanks to him helping set it up for me at the SE Bash a week or so ago...!

[tauzero]

I've got a compressor button on my AX3000B, and I've got one on my Superduperfly. Will pressing both buttons be twice as good as pressing one?

Time to pester 51m0n in here rather than on the For Sale forum, I think. I'm considering using compression (after all, if I do and it makes no difference to what the guitard hears, then it's him). At my disposal are a Korg AX3000B, an Ashdown Superduperfly, and a dbx 266XL (which would be the least ideal solution in convenience terms).

The Korg has a compressor with sensitivity and level controls, and a limiter (which seems more like a better-featured compressor) with ratio, attack, threshold and level controls.

The Superduperfly has the ability to access compressor ratio through the front panel and threshold, attack and release times through the editor program via USB.

I suspect that experts on using compressors will be familiar with the dbx 266XL.

Could I use either the Korg or the Superduperfly to compress my dynamic range somewhat, and would they be a reasonable solution, or should I really be looking at using the dbx?

[51m0n]

[b]Compression 101[/b] (ish) - or "The pestering has paid off"....

Compression need not kill your highs, nor your attack, or lead to tone suck or mud, or be inaudible (although it can be inaudible and still work).

You dont need a dual or multi-band compressor to do this (although it can be a mighty tool indeed in the right hands), and they can lead to overcomplication in my view (note the [i]can[/i], all you exponents of multiband compression).

The keys to getting a compressor to work for you are, understanding what you are trying to achieve before you start, having the controls on the front of the compressor to achieve those goals, or being lucky enough to have a less tweakable device where the parameters you cant tweak are exactly right to meet your needs - doens thappen very much.

First thing is to get a decent enough compressor to do the job.

IMO you are best served with a comrpessor with all the controls (preferably with the right names on too), silverfoxnik's dbx is a great little table top unit, Joe Meek do a floor compressor with all the controls on (although they are named wrong, slope is ratio, compression is threshold), the Markbass pedal is the real deal too. Live you cn get away with a noisier unit, but you dont have to.

IMO its really worth getting a rack unit (and a good one too) but if you cant, you cant. The reason is as much about what the metering on a rack compressor will tell you, and without it you wont be able to tell what the hell you're doing. You need to see the input level (needs to be enough and not too much or the unit wont be able to work properly), the amount of compression going on at any goven moment (you wont be able to hear much less than 6dB pf compression with a lot of settings), and the output (so you can get the level the same with the device on or bypass). And a single LED or 3 for eacjh of these is anadequate.

Next, to really get the most out of a compressor you absolutely need a limiter as well. And I've never seen a compressor pedal with a limiter as well.

So you want to change something and you think a compressor may help?

Listen to your bass sound, ask yourself this, does the attack transient of the note vastly outweigh the bit if the note just after, is the level just all over up and down when you play? Is it that some strings a re louder than others (look at pickup heights and string gauges before getting a comrpessor in this case - then get a compressor if that doesnt fix it).

Do you want to make your sound smoother (think tube amps, R&B phaaat bass sounds etc etc) or really groinky and agressive (Ramones, Stranglers) or thick and punchy as heell (Tony Levin anyone)?

Do you play fast or slow mainly?

Is your bass active or passive, do you change eq settings on your bass through a gig, what about pickup settings?

All of these effect the settings you will need for a live compressor set up. Really!

In a band setting if you can lift your average volume through the length of a note by even 2dB you will make a huge difference to how much you are heard. 3dB even more so. I am not talking about turning up your amp to twice the volume, I am talking about getting the sound from the bass to not decay in the same way, to increas the volume of the end of the note, to lessen the rate of decay of the note. Even across milliseconds of time this can make a significant difference in the audibility of your sound in a mix. Why? Because you are fighting against the big bad kick drum and the nasty snappy snare drum, and they are very voud for a very short time. And you play intime with them....

Compressor basics:-

Ratio and Threshold TOGETHER determine the amount of compression. A low ratio and a very low threshold results in the same amount of compression as a higher ratio and higher threshold, but it will often be less audible. Aim to get a solid 3dB of compression going on to begin with (you may not even really hear this)

Make up gain, use this to bring your compression level up to unity with no compression, switch the compressor in and out whilst you adjyst. Any time you change the ratio and threshold you need to fiddle with this.

Attack determines how much of the initial transient comes through by delaying the compression - start off with it pretty open (at least halfway up the dial) whilst playing with the threshold ratio combo, then close it down until you hear it choppni ght eattack of thenote down. Now we have a stylistic/taste decision - if you want to be super smooth set it really short (note that too short may bring in some nasty distortion artifacts), if you want to be super aggressive open it up, BUT if you open up the attack with a big bunch of compression the make up gain is going to send the transient through the roof, watch your output level! This is why we need a limiter to control the attack too....

Release, determines how fast the compressor disengages. In order to allow the attack of the next note through the compressor must have disengaged, if you play fast and want a big attack then you need it to disengage quickly. Watch for pumping or distortion artifact sif it si too fast. If it is too slow you wont hear the attack on the next note. Start of with a couple of hundred ms and play with it from there.

Knee - a soft knee compressor comes up to the ratio you set over a couple or 3dB below the threshold level, they sound far less obvious than a hard knee compressor, which may, or may not, be what you want.

Practice setting all kinds of different sounds and learn what they controls do, run music through it not just bass and set up the controls on full mixes, just to learn what it does better. Train your ears to hear the compressor and setting it up becomes trivial, and then you get heard, win the best gigs, and all the lovely ladies will want to get to know you....

Simples!

Edited March 3, 2011 by 51m0n

[topo morto]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1148269' date='Mar 3 2011, 12:34 PM']IMO you are best served with a comrpessor with all the controls.[/quote]


Definitely. I have a fairly cheapo rack compressor/expander with all the usual buttons and can get all sorts of effects with it... accentuating the attack, pumping... general smoothing, shifting the tonal balance, noise reduction (I hardly ever bother, but I can!). Typical pedal compressors are very limited (gedddittt??!) in comparison.

[tauzero]

Thanks 51m0n, I'll do some experimenting with all the available resources.

[pete.young]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1148269' date='Mar 3 2011, 12:34 PM'][b]Compression 101[/b] (ish) - or "The pestering has paid off"....



Simples![/quote]

Awesome. Thank you.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='pete.young' post='1149997' date='Mar 4 2011, 09:49 PM']Awesome. Thank you.[/quote]
+1

I haven't looked back since Si helped set up my DBX MC6 at the SE Bash in November...I had it for almost 3 years beforehand without ever understanding it, and now, slowly, i'm getting to grips with the principles of it..

Really comprehensive explanation - like Si's workshop at the Bash, and these sorts of threads really make a difference! And not being afraid to experiment too..

We're very lucky on Basschat that people like Si are around to help!