NancyJohnson Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 I always seem to break a little smile when I see posts showing 'my gig rig tonight', where there's a little class-D head stop of a tiny Barefaced Compact (or similar). I suppose after years of doing this, I just feel more comfortable with something big behind me. All you guys who just use tiny cabinets (1x10 or 1x12), yes, you know who you are, how the hell do you manage? OK, I know I play in a loud/noisy post-punk band, but I simply couldn't play through a single 10" or 12" speaker. Home playing at a low level, fine. Jams/live, hmm. I understand going the DI route for gigs, but surely these little cabs have very little throw and sound quality has to suffer when you're up against a busy drummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 It's pretty hard to generalise mainly because we all eq differently and go for different tones. All the power is concentrated in the bottom octave or two but most of the sound comes from the higher frequencies. But, if you go for a fairly flat eq this is how I reckon it works. A decent single 12" speaker will handle around 300W over most of it's frequency range and probably have an efficiency of around 96dB/W so from around 100Hz upwards it'll produce 120dB or thereabouts. That's pretty much going to match the output from the drums. It's also going to produce peaks of around 100dB at the vocal mics so they are going to pick up quite a lot of bass and make all sorts of problems for the vocals. There's no point in being louder than this with backline and most bands will improve their overall sound by reigning back from that point and putting stuff through the PA at the bigger venues. That's kind of marginal though, a particularly monstrous drummer with heavy sticks and a big kit combined with a band where the vocals take second place might push past this point and any bass boost is going to challenge the speaker at the bottom end. My guess is that for 80% of us a single 12 will just about do everything you need form backline. Boost the bass at all though and that speaker is going to struggle. Just a small bass boost is going to double the power demand so the few people who find these tiny speakers are not enough aren't wrong, they are just doing things differently. For the rest of us why carry more than you need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfrasho Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Take out the mega lows for stage purposes and let the pa do the hard work. I eq out alot below 50hz. I know that might technocally affect the actual tone but it's hardly noticeable in my experience. It lets the audible frequencies become...well... more audible. You can squeeze alot more out a wee cabinet than you'd imagine, aslong as you're realistic. **disclaimer - there's nothing scientific about this post, it's just from my experience ** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 In one of my old bands I used the Markbass CMD121P - a 1x12 combo - and the other bassist used a Trace Eliot combo of some sorts, think was a 1x12. The volume was fine, but now using bigger gear, whenever I get a 1x15 or 2x10 combo as a provided rig I really notice the difference, or should that be lack, in depth of sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 I'm sure we're all familiar with this type of chart: Lovely, isn't it? Thing is while I'm sure Phil's post is of some interest, I did start to blur over. (Sorry!) Thing is, these sort of numbers are not unlike the motor vehicle manufacturers claims of peak performance for their vehicles; unrealistic in the real world. Ever had 50mpg from your Honda CR-V? No me neither. When I turn up for a gig (like last weekend), where we have no monitors, little more than a vocal PA running the gig, I despair. Room was about 45'x30'. The sound guy, bless him, is saying we need to turn down, the drummer can't hear me (and he's sitting less than a metre from my gear), I can't hear me or anything else apart from the drums. I'm sorry, but a 1x12 isn't going to work now, is it? If, however, I was playing in a jazz trio, acoustic piano, drummer on brushes, I'm sure a 1x12 would be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 [quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1493029201' post='3284887'] I'm sure we're all familiar with this type of chart: Lovely, isn't it? Thing is while I'm sure Phil's post is of some interest, I did start to blur over. (Sorry!) Thing is, these sort of numbers are not unlike the motor vehicle manufacturers claims of peak performance for their vehicles; unrealistic in the real world. Ever had 50mpg from your Honda CR-V? No me neither. When I turn up for a gig (like last weekend), where we have no monitors, little more than a vocal PA running the gig, I despair. Room was about 45'x30'. The sound guy, bless him, is saying we need to turn down, the drummer can't hear me (and he's sitting less than a metre from my gear), I can't hear me or anything else apart from the drums. I'm sorry, but a 1x12 isn't going to work now, is it? If, however, I was playing in a jazz trio, acoustic piano, drummer on brushes, I'm sure a 1x12 would be fine. [/quote] Kill the guitarist(s) and all will be fine.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 [quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1493029201' post='3284887'] Ever had 50mpg from your Honda CR-V? No me neither. ... WI'm sorry, but a 1x12 isn't going to work now, is it? If, however, I was playing in a jazz trio, acoustic piano, drummer on brushes, I'm sure a 1x12 would be fine. [/quote] Phil isnt trying to sell anything and I agree with his general assessment - 80% of people would be fine with a single 12, of the remaining 20% probably 19% would be fine with two. At one point I was using a eden 210xlt and in a very loud band - cant imagine anything that cab couldn't cope with unless you were a headlining pro musician playing festival stages or something. IMO people who think they need more than this .. 1) dont understand what modern small speakers/cabs are really capable of 2) dont know how to use EQ/HPF sensibly to get a load projected sound without consuming vast amounts of low frequency energy 3) buy into the fallacy that more speakers add some sort of mythical "weight" to the sound 3) understand all of the above but just like a bigger rig because it looks cool (I probably fall into this category) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1493031207' post='3284913']Phil isnt trying to sell anything and I agree with his general assessment - 80% of people would be fine with a single 12[/quote] I completely disagree with this. It's like saying that 80% of cars are fine with a 1 litre engine. It totally depends on the specifics of that engine. Give it direct injection, sequential turbocharging and hybrid assistance and properly optimise it and yes, you can get hundreds of horsepower and a good working torque curve. Get it straight out of an old Austin Metro and watch most of the 80% drive it to the scrap yard instead of their gig. Paul/Nancy - aren't you just using a single 15"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Like the OP i was always a believer in bigger heavier cabs but i heard a Markbass CMD12P on its own in a rehearsal studio next to one i was in and i was astounded how clear thru the mix it was. Was a well known Prog band with keys, gtr, bass, drums so quite a lot going on. I asked the bassist what he was using at end of rehearsals and he told me all about it. He went from Ampeg rig to Markbass combo for studio work and full rig live. I decided this was the way to go. Last year i was playing with a Glam Rock covers band and the bass rig was so loud and clear we didn't need to put thru their PA. I stood out front during sound check and couldn't believe just how great it sounded. The amp was running almost flat with horn turned down on ext cab and just a touch of filering. I then tried an Orange rig 8x10 and couldn't believe the warm depth of sound and that's where i'm heading at moment. Using OBC115 & 210mini cabs and as soon as my Ampeg is repaired will use that via the x-over. Think its a case of knowing how to get what you want or what you from an amp. Sometimes the lightweight speakers sound thin when standing in front of them ie my Berg AE112 rig but when you move 10ft from the cabs they were pretty solid sounding bass but most of all clear and therefore seemed to cut thru the band mix. I used the berg rig in a Deep Purple tribute band just to give you an idea of music they can be used with. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casapete Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 I did agree with the OP about smaller / one speaker cabs UNTIL I got my Barefaced Compact, which completely changed my ideas. I've gigged with it in fairly loud situations with no PA support and it's never really struggled, powered by my GK1001RB. However, I still prefer to use a GK 4x10 for my main gigs. My band doesn't play really loud, but there's just something about the sound / dispersion I like (maybe just what I'm used to?) I've never used single speaker cabs before this, having had the usual 2x15 / 8x10 / 4x10 stuff. Did a gig depping a while back with a function band where I used the bassist's Mark Bass LM amp into a small MK cab (1x12 I think) and honestly wondered how he coped. It sounded on the edge of breaking up at fairly moderate levels. Even with PA support, you are often relying on the monitors being good enough to cope / sound ok etc., so I prefer to have my sound behind me and go from there. Outdated ideas maybe, but works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjim Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 In an old band I used just a 112 with a micro class D amp with no problems at all. Then I joined a louder rocky-er band with a gitard that liked to crank a Fender twin and a shed building drummer. I added another 112 and that solved that. These days I like to take couple of cabs and an amp with a transformer regardless of band, out of prefrence to the tone I get. If a 112 is working on its own in a small venue I leave the 210 in the car. Or the other way round. Sometimes I unplug one of the cabs if I'm too loud. Either way I'm covered. I haven't come across any pub or club venue where I could get an 8x10 type rig out and use it in anger without causing problems all round. I don't think I'd be happy if I needed one for the band I was playing in. I don't think the venues would be happy with that amount of volume either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 I think it depends which 1x12 or 1x10 cab you are using, the modern high efficiency cabs are nothing like the cabs of 10 years ago, i run barefaced midgets (2nd gen) and a single one really can hold it's own against a very noisy drummer and a guitarist with no concept of turning down, when i was looking at cabs a local BC'er (thanks Jack) invited me to one of his band practices to try out his midget/compact setup, it was a smallish room drums, bass and 2 marshall half stacks, i commented afterwards how well the cab paring cut through the sound and was informed that only the midget was plugged in! i've also has the chance to A/B the barefaced against TKS cabs and they're very similar in volume. Markbass/Vanderkly/berg/.Aguilar all offer astonishing small cabs compared to what was around 10 years ago. matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493031843' post='3284917'] I completely disagree with this. It's like saying that 80% of cars are fine with a 1 litre engine. It totally depends on the specifics of that engine. Give it direct injection, sequential turbocharging and hybrid assistance and properly optimise it and yes, you can get hundreds of horsepower and a good working torque curve. Get it straight out of an old Austin Metro and watch most of the 80% drive it to the scrap yard instead of their gig. Paul/Nancy - aren't you just using a single 15"? [/quote] Hey Alex The Big One one I won at the Bash is a 15/6. It's been fine in most circumstances and the only time I've reverted back to the Hartkes is when I'm playing bigger rooms. The plan is to go with an additional Super Twin at some stage (wife is still giving me grief because the house is filling up with cabinets). P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Back in the day, my Marshall and Hiwatt stacks sounded great as did my Peavey, Ampeg and Dual Showman 215's and every 810 I've used has been sonic nirvana. Using great sounding cabs has always been the aim and these days the design of some small cabs means I can use a 112 if I really have to and I'll know that most gigs will be fine. I would have never imagined I could say this. What a great time to be a bass player. On the other hand I think 2 112 cabs sound so much better (even at lower volumes) that I always use both. 2 21lb trips is wonderful and if I really needed to knock down more walls I'd just get a third 112. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 2x 110s serve me fine Plenty of volume and bass in a package I can actually get to the gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 If I can add something else here (which has been touched up on a couple of responses), I have my sound, as does my band as a whole. There you go. I like to think of my tone as being a dirtyish cross between Jean Jacques Burnel and Geddy Lee. Realistically, in the simplest of terms, I want to be able to turn up, set up, plug in and go. I do not want to be having to tweak, roll off (or on) settings that alter this tone (any more than our guitarist would). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 [quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1493033536' post='3284951']The Big One one I won at the Bash is a 15/6. It's been fine in most circumstances...[/quote] The single 12" driver found in our Super Midget, Super Compact and Big Baby 2 can go as loud as that. The only limitation would be generating quite as much output in the lows but it's a pretty close run thing, it just sounds tighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493031843' post='3284917'] I completely disagree with this. It's like saying that 80% of cars are fine with a 1 litre engine. It totally depends on the specifics of that engine. Give it direct injection, sequential turbocharging and hybrid assistance and properly optimise it and yes, you can get hundreds of horsepower and a good working torque curve. Get it straight out of an old Austin Metro and watch most of the 80% drive it to the scrap yard instead of their gig. Paul/Nancy - aren't you just using a single 15"? [/quote] That's a surprise Alex, since the cab he mentioned as 'how the hell do you cope' was one of yours! I was really addressing the OP's post and by saying 'decent single 12' I thought I'd made it clear I was talking about the Barefaced mentioned and a lot of others that utilise the best of modern driver design to enable us to go out with much reduced kit in terms of weight and speaker acreage. I was specifically referring to your single 12's because the OP referred to them and saying that the claims made for your speakers are perfectly reasonable in terms of the technology. There's no magic just good use of technology. In saying you 'completely disagree' I assume you are telling everyone that a single Barefaced 12 isn't enough to keep up with the band for 80% of bassists. Is that what you are saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1493035368' post='3284982'] That's a surprise Alex, since the cab he mentioned as 'how the hell do you cope' was one of yours! In saying you 'completely disagree' I assume you are telling everyone that a single Barefaced 12 isn't enough to keep up with the band for 80% of bassists. Is that what you are saying? [/quote] As Tommy Cooper would say "get out of that without moving". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Not really. Alex is saying that not all 1 litre engines are the same, and that not all little cabs are the same. Whether his cab is the cab in question or not has nothing to do with it the way I've read everything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 [quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1493029201' post='3284887'] I'm sure we're all familiar with this type of chart: [/quote] Not from bass equipment manufacturers we aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 [quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1493029201' post='3284887'] I can't hear me or anything else apart from the drums. I'm sorry, but a 1x12 isn't going to work now, is it? If, however, I was playing in a jazz trio, acoustic piano, drummer on brushes, I'm sure a 1x12 would be fine. [/quote] You've answered your own question. So I'm not sure what your point is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 The OP expressed a point of view and put it up for discussion. What's wrong with that? Seems fair enough to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1493035368' post='3284982'] That's a surprise Alex, since the cab he mentioned as 'how the hell do you cope' was one of yours! [/quote] It was a metaphor Mr Starr. If you'd like to purchase a Get Out Of Jail Free card, hit me up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 [quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1493063275' post='3285356'] You've answered your own question. So I'm not sure what your point is. [/quote] Are you on your period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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