Little cabinets.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1493225579' post='3286733']
True that, but this thread isn't about Nancy's Johnson's needs and wants, it's about how the rest of us make it work with one small cab. Or at least the part I answered is.
[/quote]Hi Charlie, loving your amp designs and can't wait to hear John's (chienmortbb) combo when it's finished.

It's a shame in a way that there has been a little more heat than light so far. I think there is a general trend towards lightweight single driver cabs in bass amplification and lots of people fear that the cabs generally won';t have enough oomph. There's a lot of advertising hype from manufacturers too and unless you have a technical mind it's difficult to separate the fluff from the genuine claim. I hope it helps when those of us who do understand the technical side of things and who aren't selling anything pitch in.

I don't really apologise for introducing decibels either. If someone is asking if the bass can be as loud as the drums then the decibels are pretty much the starting point. Without that you just have to choose your expert and take it on trust, with measurements you can check what is being said. Decibels aren't difficult either 1dB louder is the minimum increase you'll notice, 3dB louder is tweaking the volume up a notch and 10dB extra is double the volume.

Drummers produce around 100-103dB at their own ears on average. That's roughly a metre away from from the bits they are hitting, so if your bass amp can produce around that level it's going to be able to match the drums. The trouble is that this is an average for the drums, your bass amp is limited by it's peak output. For a typical 12" speaker that's going to be around 120-123dB at frequencies above 100Hz. Now drums are especially dynamic so a really hard strike is going to be louder than 123dB but all that means is that some drum beats are going to be heard over the rest of the band. Well, what a surprise! Without going too technical my belief is that if the bass can play 20dB louder than the average sound level of the drums it's going to be able to match the drums. That means that if all I'm saying is true half of the 12" speakers around can get to this level above 100Hz.

There's an extra bit though, below 100Hz is the real deep bass, here the problem is that the output is limited by the amount of air the speaker can shift, and for a 12" speaker that's about how far backwards and forwards it can move without breaking. That's the real innovation that has come in. To do this successfully you need bigger magnets ( well more powerful anyway) You can do this with a very large conventional magnet but that defeats the lightweight advantage you are trying to achieve or you can use a stronger magnet material, Neodymium. This gives you an extra few dB of bass, so long as you use one of the new long throw bass drivers.

In my opinion this is pushing up against what is possible, not every design is going to be equally successful, you certainly would have to be careful boosting the bass by 3dB with a single 12 but yes, it is technically possible to do most of your gigs with a single 12. My experience is that the theory holds true, I do most of my pub gigs with a single 12 and use a second one in the larger venues.

None of this means that there is only one way of doing things, or that you'll get the sound you want this way, if you love your Ampeg then stick with it but with a well designed lightweight you can be loud enough, and the audience probably won't notice.

[JazzBass4624]

I use a VanderKleij 112 powered by my LMIII and it has been sufficient so far. Beatifull sound and loud enough. But then.....our drummer is called Beatbuddy and has a volume knob.
In case I would join another (louder) band I might add a second Vanderkleij 112. Should be more than enought for me. I love the size and the weight of these little rigs and don't want to go back to hiring vans in order to haul the heavy bassman 100 and super six reverbs of the past.

[Steve Browning]

Thank you for an excellent post Phil. As a non-techie, that makes perfect sense.

[Marc S]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1493065606' post='3285390']
NJ asked how users of 1x12 cabinets managed "You know who you are".. Those users are either playing in bands that don't need brain cell scorching volumes, or if they do, know how to get a great tone out of kit without the onstage volume onslaught. The kit is chosen for it's job, not how cool it looks?.....

*each to their own of course.
[/quote]

Exactly. I've done the whole punk thing, blasted out through large, heavy cabs,back in the early 80's, when I was younger and so was my back!

Let alone 1x12's, I use 1x10's. Epifani 1x10's (sometimes one, combined with a Markbass 2x10) An odd combo, I know a 3x10! But it's small, compact, lightweight and works surprisingly well.

Last month, I played a charity gig, on my EUB with a drummer and singer / guitarist. I was lead to believe we were all going through a large PA system and the gig was held in a quite large hall. As it was a freebie, we decided to all go in a single car - mine. So I had the 3 of us, small drum-kit, guitar, my EUB and small bass amp - TC550 head and a single Epifani 1x10

When we got there, the people running it clearly had just hired the PA and had no idea how to put my EUB through the PA and time was tight as it was over-running. So I thought I'd just try the TC head and 1x10 on its' own. Now said hall was big - we're talking 40 feet floor to ceiling! - and it was quite a long hall, full of people at that....

But guess what - the 1x10 on its' own was more than adequate. In fact, I had my volume a little over half way, and the guy who was trying to be sound engineer asked me to turn down! The PA was quite large, and loud, judging by the bands I'd heard on before & after us. OK, our drummer wasn't the loudest, but he had to hit harder than he usually would, as the sound guy didn't have time to mic him up either

In another band, with a very loud drummer (ex session guy, who's done heavy rock & metal stuff too) my 3x10 rig has never not coped, and we've played some very large venues. In fact, in the Ramones tribute band I was once in, with an uber loud guitarist - my old Markbass 2x10 always coped - and that guitarist always insisted on being stupidly loud!

With modern cabs and speakers, If 2x10's and even my 1x10 can cope - 1x12 or 2x12 is surely enough, unless you're playing a stadium.
So I'll ask the OP this question - massive speaker cabs - why put your back / muscles / knees / shoulders through it?
I could never haul the old fridge sized cabs I used to lug around - let alone get a DB and other band members in a hatchback car

Edited April 27, 2017 by Marc S

[Marc S]

Just adding a bit more here... lol
But as I mentioned "playing a stadium" - I haven't done that, but I've played some outdoor gigs, in big wide open spaces...
I once played a Festival with just a PJB 4x5 cabinet - again, I thought I'd be going through the PA, but on the day was asked to see if my amp could cope without being put through it... and it certainly did. Although the drummer wasn't particularly loud, we had keys, guitar, sax and a few vocals onstage, and it was a pretty big open space...

Also, in my Elvis tribute backing band, we played a really big open space at a festival (Pontypool Park if you want to check it out) again, I wasn't put through the PA. Against said loud drummer, different loud guitarist and rather loud keys player. I used a Markbass CMD102 combo, with PJB 4x5 piranha cab, and again - it was more than loud enough....

When playing DB, I found the sound of 15" speakers to be rather "boomy", sometimes "muddy" and mostly with an ill-defined low end, so I sold my 1x15" as it was bigger & heavier than any of the other cabs I've used recently - and never sounded as good as a 4x5 or 2x10

Edited April 27, 2017 by Marc S

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1493279135' post='3287027'] ...I hope it helps when those of us who do understand the technical side of things and who aren't selling anything pitch in...
[/quote]

Absolutely does, thanks!

[Lozz196]

I think a lot of this all comes down to the older ones of us - that includes me btw - remembering the thundering fullsome sounds we had on stage with the bigger gear, then not getting that with the smaller gear. But, as said, with the bass going FOH, and with monitoring being better than ever, do we need that thunder on stage? In reality, no, and the smaller gear is plenty loud enough for all of us I`m sure. But we just want that thunder! I did a gig last Sat where the monitoring was so good I wouldn`t have even needed the amp, I could have gone from my Sansamp straight to FOH.

Re lighter, smaller cabs, I had two Barefaced Super 12Ts and the pair together were easily equal to the 810 stacks that are provided at festivals. I then very stoopidly sold them! Happy with my Ashdown gear though, whilst not quite as light as the Barefaced I get the sound I want from some very robust cabs and as bought second hand, at a very reasonable outlay.

[Beer of the Bass]

I'll probably take a single 12" cab out for my Sunday gig this weekend with an 80 watt valve head and vocal PA only, and I expect that to work out just fine in that setting. But that's for a chilled-out set in a family pub on a Sunday afternoon where playing at rock volumes wouldn't get us invited back.
I do have a second cab that comes out sometimes (in a larger room or when drunk people are dancing), and the pair of them are noticeably bigger sounding though I don't own any amp more powerful than 200 watts currently. My cabs could be described as a typical 1x12" (with around 250cc displacement) rather than some of the more capable 1x12s, so I would not be surprised if a more powerful amp on the right modern 1x12" could do the same job.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1493279135' post='3287027']
It's a shame in a way that there has been a little more heat than light so far. I think there is a general trend towards lightweight single driver cabs in bass amplification and lots of people fear that the cabs generally won';t have enough oomph. There's a lot of advertising hype from manufacturers too and unless you have a technical mind it's difficult to separate the fluff from the genuine claim. I hope it helps when those of us who do understand the technical side of things and who aren't selling anything pitch in.

<snipped useful discussion>
[/quote]

Yep, well said Phil. Although in theory I am now a commercial poster of sorts on the bass oriented forums, I still have nothing but freelance design work to sell and speaker cabs are not currently on my radar at all. What anyone else prefers to use is all good by me. If they ask for help, or just want to know how I roll, I try to answer as best I can. Rock on, Nancy Johnson!

[NancyJohnson]

[quote name='Marc S' timestamp='1493288000' post='3287134']
So I'll ask the OP this question - massive speaker cabs - why put your back / muscles / knees / shoulders through it?
[/quote]

For the love of it, I suppose. I've dramatically reduced the weight of my gear in recent years; the HyDrives (4x10 and 2x10) are fairly lightweight compared to my old Ashdowns and the Barefaced is lighter again than the HyDrives. [i][Edit: The Hydrive 4x10 also has castors and we have a band trolley for wheeling in other stuff.][/i] Rack weight has halved I reckon, since I moved to a Matrix power stage. Lower back pain has been with me since my teens...it's the hand issues that are the big problem (see other threads).

Edited April 28, 2017 by NancyJohnson

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1493234857' post='3286847']
Wouldn't this be just dreamy?
[/quote]

I must be living the dream then... In the last 5 years i've had the luck to work with musicians that understand their place in the band mix onstage. I own a RCF PA in half with the drummer and we leave it to do it's work so we don't leave the gigs deaf. I've gigged a lot of times with an old rock band using just my Promethean 1x10" combo and it was more than enough to cope with the drums. Now i've been using the S12T as it lives in the drummer's (band's) van with the rest of the gear as it's easier for me to have the small combo at home for transport, if i need to play anywere else. Only volume war we have on stage is with the vocal monitor the tends to go too loud but it's easy to manage.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1493279135' post='3287027']
Hi Charlie, loving your amp designs and can't wait to hear John's (chienmortbb) combo when it's finished.
[/quote]

A combo is my next project Phil, the current one is a 500 Watt head.