Passive DI box

[xgsjx]

I've got a valve amp which has no DI & instead of a "speaker" socket, it has 2 spring loaded terminals. So the speaker cable has a jack on one end only.

Today after church, one of the MDs asked why I didn't bring my rig. I told him that it would need mic'd up.
When I got home, it got me curious about getting it DIable.

So, after a short google, I found this...

http://www.palmergear.com/pan01.shtml


Anyone tried one?

Would this allow me to DI from the amp to the desk without issue?

I don't see why it wouldn't, but as I've no experience of DI boxes, I thought where better to ask than here.

[Roland Rock]

I may be wrong, but it sounds like you want to connect the amp's speaker out to the DI? not such a good idea for the amp or the DI.

You could connect the bass to the PA via the DI, with a through signal going to the amp for onstage valviness.

BTW there are plenty of options to get a DI in the UK. I use a Radial Stagebug

[Graham]

I think this would do the trick

http://www.radialeng.com/jdx48.php

[Jack]

There are a few DIs that offer that feature, my favourite (and tbh, the only one I'd trust to actually take a speaker load) is the [url="http://www.countryman.com/type-85-direct-box"]Countryman Type 85[/url]. With that being said, they range in price all the way from [url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_die_dibox_passiv.htm"]Millenium[/url] to [url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/suhr_reactive_load.htm"]Suhr[/url]. Just be aware that most (all?) valve amps need a load to work, so if the DI box doesn't have a load then you will still need a cabinet. Some (the Suhr is one) present a dummy load, so you can run your amp without a cabinet.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Jack

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1492970895' post='3284505']
I may be wrong, but it sounds like you want to connect the amp's speaker out to the DI? not such a good idea for the amp or the DI.
[/quote]
That's exactly what I was wanting to do.
I had originally started googling how to wire in a DI to the amp, possibly taking it just from the pre amp section. But the first thing I found was someone suggesting this to someone with a similar question...
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=2]Parts needed:[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=2]1/4" jack[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=2]one 100 ohm resistor[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=2]one 2200 ohm resistor[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=2]a few inches of wire[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=2]two alligator clips[/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=2]1. Take a 1/4" jack and install the 100 ohm resistor from hot to ground. Don't solder it yet. [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=2]2. Tie a few inches of hook up wire to the ground lead and solder it. You will simultaneously solder the 100 ohm resistor lead to ground.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=2]3. Connect the 2200 ohm resistor to the hot lead and solder it. You will simultaneously solder the other lead of the 100 ohm resistor to hot.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=2]4. On the free end of the 2200 ohm and also on the free end of the wire, solder an alligator clip [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=2]You are done. Clip the two alligator clips to the + and - of a speaker and you now have a line out. This will drive almost anything. ( another amp, mixer, effects pedals, etc.)[/size][/font][/color]

Then someone else suggested the passive di box idea. The thread never came to a comclusion though.

I had considered getting an active di, as the rig should have no probs filling the church & the soundy could give me that bit extra clarity & oomph across the congregation.

[Jack]

Two things I think here.

Firstly, and mainly. Please, don't DIY something like this. In terms of disasters, you've got everything from it breaking on you mid song, through damaging your amp, right the way up to death and everything in between.

Secondly, I think you may be confusing active and passive DI boxes with speaker and intrstrument level DI boxes. DI boxes can be instrument level, line level, speaker level or more than one of those. And any of these types of DI box can be active (requires electricity to work) or passive (doesn't).

Edited April 23, 2017 by Jack

[xgsjx]

Oooh! Cheers chaps.

That's what I want. I don't really want to be spending over £100 (preferably less than £50).
Anyone used one of the cheaper ones, like that [url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_die_dibox_passiv.htm"]Millenium[/url] one?

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1492972625' post='3284542']
Two things I think here.

Firstly, and mainly. Please, don't DIY something like this. In terms of disasters, you've got everything from it breaking on you mid song, through damaging your amp, right the way up to death and everything in between.

Secondly, I think you may be confusing active and passive DI boxes with speaker and intrstrument level DI boxes. DI boxes can be instrument level, line level, speaker level or more than one of those. And any of these types of DI box can be active (requires electricity to work) or passive (doesn't).
[/quote]
Don't worry about the 1st part, it's highly unlikely to get done & if it was, I'd be getting help from someone who knows what they're doing.

Your second part hits pretty much what I wasn't sure of.
Being a stranger to DI boxes, I had assumed that passive would work at speaker level.
At church I run my bass to tuner/mute pedal to a small active DI box that runs phantom off the XLR & use IEM to hear me, the band & MD.

The more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm thinking DI box with a preamp (such as a sansamp) between the bass & amp. This way I can use it with or without the rig.

Both options are on the table still.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1492972754' post='3284549']
Oooh! Cheers chaps.

That's what I want. I don't really want to be spending over £100 (preferably less than £50).
Anyone used one of the cheaper ones, like that [url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_die_dibox_passiv.htm"]Millenium[/url] one?
[/quote]

"integrated switchable resistor network for extremely high input level" sounds promising.

Will you be using a cab as well as the DI?
If not, as mentioned above you'll need to be sure that the DI presents a dummy load in order to keep the amp happy.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1492973487' post='3284559']
"integrated switchable resistor network for extremely high input level" sounds promising.

Will you be using a cab as well as the DI?
If not, as mentioned above you'll need to be sure that the DI presents a dummy load in order to keep the amp happy.
[/quote]
I'd always use a cab with the amp.

[Beer of the Bass]

I'd rather use a proper DI box than follow those instructions for a simple resistor divider, as with a DI box you usually have tranformer isolation between the amp and PA and a ground lift switch in case of hum. Also, sound guys tend to be much happier taking a line from a familiar looking DI box than some home-built contraption!
I have an older BSS AR116 that can do this (with the 40dB pad engaged), though it's an active rather than a passive DI, and obviously you still need a speaker to present the correct load to the amp. I think the current BSS models are quite pricey though. I think the cheapest DI box that claims to be suitable for this use is the Behringer DI100.
There are also dedicated guitar speaker level DI boxes from Hughes & Kettner or Palmer which offer speaker simulation on the DI output. This might be handy to take the edge off if you're using overdrive or fuzz sounds, but maybe less useful for clean bass.

[xgsjx]

I hadn't planned on making one of those contraptions, though a few had made one & said they had no issues.

I'll have a look & see what BSS offer & also the Behringer DI100.

[Jack]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1492973326' post='3284556']
Don't worry about the 1st part, it's highly unlikely to get done & if it was, I'd be getting help from someone who knows what they're doing.
[/quote]

Pleased to hear it, asking for trouble IMO.

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1492973326' post='3284556']
The more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm thinking DI box with a preamp (such as a sansamp) between the bass & amp. This way I can use it with or without the rig.

Both options are on the table still.
[/quote]
Good choice! Lots of tube amp ish ones from the Behringer BDI to the Two Notes Le Bass.

[mcnach]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1492973326' post='3284556']
Don't worry about the 1st part, it's highly unlikely to get done & if it was, I'd be getting help from someone who knows what they're doing.

Your second part hits pretty much what I wasn't sure of.
Being a stranger to DI boxes, I had assumed that passive would work at speaker level.
At church I run my bass to tuner/mute pedal to a small active DI box that runs phantom off the XLR & use IEM to hear me, the band & MD.

The more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm thinking DI box with a preamp (such as a sansamp) between the bass & amp. This way I can use it with or without the rig.

Both options are on the table still.
[/quote]

Have a look at this Palmer PD09. You can plug the speaker out directly into it AND it has a speaker simulation built in that appears to work really nicely (I don't have one, but listened to a lot of demos on guitar), so you can get a nice sound for recording, monitoring with headphones...

[url="https://www.andertons.co.uk/p/PDI09/audio-solutions/palmer-pdi-09-passive-di-for-guitar-with-speaker-emulation"]https://www.andertons.co.uk/p/PDI09/audio-solutions/palmer-pdi-09-passive-di-for-guitar-with-speaker-emulation[/url]

[GremlinAndy]

What's the reason for trying to put it between the amp and speaker? A DI like the one in your picture just sits between your guitar/bass and the amp, and the xlr output goes to the desk.
It doesn't get much simpler...
Or maybe I'm missing something?

Edited April 24, 2017 by GremlinAndy

[xgsjx]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1492988201' post='3284709']
Have a look at this Palmer PD09. You can plug the speaker out directly into it AND it has a speaker simulation built in that appears to work really nicely (I don't have one, but listened to a lot of demos on guitar), so you can get a nice sound for recording, monitoring with headphones...

[url="https://www.andertons.co.uk/p/PDI09/audio-solutions/palmer-pdi-09-passive-di-for-guitar-with-speaker-emulation"]https://www.anderton...eaker-emulation[/url]
[/quote]
Funny enough, it was the PD-09 that I first saw & then looked to see what else they do. Then I saw the PAN-01 & thought it was just a cheaper version of it.

[quote name='GremlinAndy' timestamp='1492995848' post='3284723']
What's the reason for trying to put it between the amp and speaker? A DI like the one in your picture just sits between your guitar/bass and the amp, and the xlr output goes to the desk.
It doesn't get much simpler...
Or maybe I'm missing something?
[/quote]
I'd like to get the sound of my amp as well as the bass (an all valve Radiovox) out to the desk.

[Phil Starr]

I'm not going to recommend that particular box only because it isn't something I recognise as a brand but it has a link out and a 30dB pad (the pad reduces the signal by 30dB, so it's there to reduce the signal from a speaker down to a few thousandths of a volt) It is designed so you can insert it into the speaker chain reconnect your speaker and take the reduced output to the mixing desk. Most DI boxes do just this with either a 30dB or a 40dB pad which someone else mentioned. Loads of passive and active DI's to choose from.

You should be able to use this with confidence, just read the instructions. If not then your alternative is to go the Sansamp/V amp route, loads of choices there too.

[EBS_freak]

The Behringer is a great DI box for this application - but remember, without cab emulation, the DI is going to be quite bright in comparison to what you are hearing through your cab.. so without speaker emulation, you will need a FOH engineer who is prepared to work with your to get the cab sound back into your feed.

You haven't said what sort of budget you are looking at... but with a speaker output compatible DI box and something like a Two Torpedos cabinet sim, you could get some crazy good feeds out to front of house.

Off the top of my head, in addition to ones that have already been mentioned, throw the ART and Kemper DI box into the mix... but I would urge you to go with a box with some sort of cabinet emulation that can be completely turned on or off if you are looking for a one box solution.

[mcnach]

Maybe one of the many DI options that can take a speaker input and adding a pedal like the DSM OmniCabSim for cab simulation?

[casapete]

Maybe this Peavey EDI would do the job? £48 so within your budget too.
http://www.ccmusicshop.co.uk/product/peavey-edi-direct-box/

[EBS_freak]

Just thought - you aren't planning on running the head without a cab and just a DI are you?

You will still need a load on a valve amp...

[BigRedX]

If yo are planning on using the speaker output of your amp as the DI source and still have your cab(s) connected, then don't buy anything without having a look and listen to the [url=http://www.emosystems.co.uk/Products/Passive_Direct_Injection_Boxes.html]EMO range of DI boxes[/url]. They have separate inputs and outputs for instrument, line and speaker levels, and all are transformer isolated from the DI XLR connection.

However before buying any speaker level DI box, check that it is happy with the kind of currents a bass amp will be outputting from it's speaker sockets. IME most of these devices are aimed at guitarists and tend to top out at 100W maximum.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1493039388' post='3285056']
Just thought - you aren't planning on running the head without a cab and just a DI are you?

You will still need a load on a valve amp...
[/quote]

No, I checked that earlier - he's going to run a cabinet as well as the DI

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1493042741' post='3285109']
No, I checked that earlier - he's going to run a cabinet as well as the DI
[/quote]
So you did - missed it!

In which case, a decent mic is defo the easiest option! (May be a little more costly but I think it will take a lot of hassle out of the equation!)

[Dan Dare]

To answer the OP's question, yes, I have 2 of those Palmer DI boxes and they are much better than their price suggests. Made in Deutschland, not China like most budget priced models. They do a more deluxe model, too, with a better transformer, which is excellent and which I also have a couple of.