The New Direction Of Bass & Players

[FinnDave]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1493462359' post='3288508']
I'll keep my fingers crossed that you guys have an exceptional evening Dave.

We have an 8:00-12:00 tonight. I'm going with a positive attitude and will play my best.

Blue
[/quote]

Cheers, Blue, have a good evening yourself.

[FinnDave]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1493462536' post='3288511']
I know musicians who would stop playing if they couldn't gig, the entertainment part of it is the most important thing. I also know plenty of musicians who have no interest in playing live & spend their time working on recording & writing projects, film scores etc. Both types of people love & enjoy what they do passionately.
[/quote]

I am firmly in the first camp, if the gigs completely dried up, my gear would be sold and I'd be gone. For me, it has always been and always will be about playing to audiences. The only time I play at home is when I have to learn new songs. I do my best to avoid time in recording studios as I find it boring beyond description, but I know people who consider that the pinnacle of musical perfection. I obviously understand that there are people with different opinions to me, but that doesn't help me to understand them!

[skej21]

Personally, I spent hours refining our covers set. I arranged every song in an interesting way, mashed up classics with new songs, rehearsed it with the band to perfection, got really excited and then went out to play it at a wedding we got booked to do and 90% of the guests were hammered and ignored us (apart from the dancing).

Alternatively, spending hours tailoring lessons to help encourage and advance a promising pupil, only to find out they've turned up and not practiced the last lot of material... again.

That's not fun. That's work. I don't go on Facebook and shout about it because nobody really cares.

I use social media for just that. My social life. If that's a quick video of something I'm practicing or sharing a new pedal I bought and what it can do then that's fine. There's a large community of bass players who use the medium to engage with each other (just like basschat but with less places to hide). I also find it's a much more positive, less cynical and a more open-minded type of engagement than a lot of the cyclical 'Jaco didn't need five strings' or 'P bass and Ampeg, the only thing you ever need' arguments that rumble on some of the Forums.

Edited April 29, 2017 by skej21

[blue]

[quote name='Kirky' timestamp='1493462826' post='3288514']
Reading this I feel very lucky to be in (near) Leeds which has a wealth of venues with live music available every night of the week. For originals we have the Brudenell Social Club, a fantastic venue with 2 rooms and frequently gigs on in both rooms. Smaller original venues like Wharf Chambers, Headrow House, Hyde Park Book Club are always putting something on. For covers in Leeds there's the Duck and Drake, the Grove, and wider afield there's hundreds of pubs that have bands at weekends. And I haven't even mentioned the larger venues (O2, Arena). Here's a [url="https://www.facebook.com/dianesgiglist/posts/1343793445697552"]weekly Facebook post[/url] that someone puts together locally showing gigs on this weekend in the Yorkshire area - a really lively scene.

Blue, I'd suggest finding out about the local originals scene (there must be one, no matter how small). Go along and check out what's happening - it might not be the sort of music you usually listen to, but I bet there's something you'll enjoy, and you'll get out and about and meet some musicians who perhaps have a different viewpoint to you, but will enjoy playing to you and meeting you. I'm not suggesting that its somewhere you'll pick up gigs, but as a musician you might really enjoy the often very original and vibrant (and sometimes challenging) work.
[/quote]

I've played in 2 originals bands before my current band.

The originals scene here is dead for the most part.

There are only 3 originals clubs in Milwaukee. Lindermans, Garibaldi's and Frank's Power Plant. I still frequent these clubs when I'm not gigging to see what's happening with younger musicians.

Blue

[SubsonicSimpleton]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1493461966' post='3288497']
I'm not looking for a flipant response. On the subject on the direction of the players.

Is going to be all guys playing 6 and 7 string bass guitars as if they were guitarists and shredding at lighting speed?

Blue
[/quote]
It doesn't really matter if people want to shred on 6/7s etc, back in the 80's Mark King spawned legions of fans who were manicly slapping their 4 strings(mostly in a way that wouldn't perform a useful musical function within most bands) - this didn't lead to everyone abandoning more traditional playing styles. Based on purely anecdotal evidence, of the bass players I have talked to that have tried extended range instruments, all but one have reverted to more traditional fives or fours because the extended range (and visual presentation) is largely useless for the majority of their playing in a band context.

If someone needs a bass player, they will take someone who can fulfill the role and make everyone else sound good over a 'frustrated lead guitarist' every time, unless they specifically want that shred approach.

This is beautiful playing and shows the musical potential of extended range instruments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPwMoiKaNOY
But lets be honest not many people in their right mind would think that it would be a good idea to carry all that extra weight and have all those extra strings to damp if they had a long gig playing punk/rock/blues/folk/soul/funk to get through.

[blue]

I guess the direction might be at home recording and solo YouTube offerings.

I don't think that's really a good thing but it sure seems to be the way things are going or I should say where things are headed.

Blue

Edited April 29, 2017 by blue

[RhysP]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1493463041' post='3288519']


I would hope I'm not mean spirited. At times I'll post something orovacative but not mean.

Of course people play for different reasons. However, you won't convince me that playing alone in the bedroom is more fun than playing with other musicians to a live engaged audience.

Recording and writing film scores is completely different. You won't get an argument out of me there.

Blue
[/quote]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. It is however a fact that some people are passionate about playing but have no interest whatsoever in playing live or being an entertainer.

How is recording & writing film scores "completely different"? Most of the people I know who do that work on their own in their bedrooms which, you are adamant, is not as much fun as playing live. All it seems you want to do is bitch & sneer at people who aren't exactly like you.

[RhysP]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1493463523' post='3288522']
I am firmly in the first camp, if the gigs completely dried up, my gear would be sold and I'd be gone. For me, it has always been and always will be about playing to audiences. The only time I play at home is when I have to learn new songs. I do my best to avoid time in recording studios as I find it boring beyond description, but I know people who consider that the pinnacle of musical perfection. I obviously understand that there are people with different opinions to me, but that doesn't help me to understand them!
[/quote]

Fine, but the big difference between you & Blue is you don't feel the need to start argumentative threads about pretty much the same bloody subject every week or so.

[peteb]

There are a number of points raised here, most of which are true to some extent but the situation is not quite as grim as many are suggesting:

[indent=1]1. There is still a decent following for live classic rock. To say that no one under 60 cares about this type of music is nonsense. I’m seeing an audience on a weekly basis predominantly made up of people in the thirties or forties, but with a fair sprinkling of 20 somethings.[/indent]
[indent=1]2. However, kids don’t see rock music as the be all and end all as many people my age did when they were their age. They have many other competing attractions and even those who do like rock music don’t see it as their only outlet for entertainment.[/indent]
[indent=1]3. We have an ageing population in the west and part of the reason why you tend to see more old than younger people at gigs is that there are actually more of them.[/indent]
[indent=1]4. People generally do not have the same level of disposable income as they used to, which has seen the downturn of the pub trade in general and music pubs in particular. This is especially true of the younger end of the market. You have to make a gig more of an event to get an audience out now.[/indent]
[indent=1]5. As someone said above, this has thinned out some of the worse bands and the worse venues. IMO this is a good thing! The better bands and venues are still doing alright.[/indent]
[indent=1]6. The situation is somewhat different in many parts of mainland Europe, where people will still pack venues where there is a live band.[/indent]

You have to bear in mind that things change and rock and roll is no longer the ubiquitous force it once was. However, there will always be a demand for decent live entertainment, especially music.

Edited April 29, 2017 by peteb

[blue]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1493464149' post='3288531']


How is recording & writing film scores "completely different"? [/quote]

That or my position is merely opinion.

IMO film scoring would be more meaningful type of work and also more fun than the typical bedroom player.

For those who love solo bedroom playing, I say keep it up, do your own thing and definitely have fun.

Please don't let my opinions inpact you and don't take them seriously.

Blue

Edited April 29, 2017 by blue

[chris_b]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1493429738' post='3288296']
In someways I think the new players are smarter and more advanced technically than my generation.
[/quote]

I see a conveyor belt of players coming out of the music colleges who are at a technical level, a level of ability that couldn't have been dreamed of when I started, but the one thing that many of them can't manage is to sit on a groove. Do they teach simplicity at these colleges?

If you want a dozen great notes in the blink of an eye, they are the players for you but if you want solid, soul wrenching and effective playing don't ask any of those guys.

[blue]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1493464585' post='3288535']
There are a number of points raised here, most of which are true to some extent but the situation is not quite as grim as many are suggesting:[/quote]

Probably not Pete. We actually played a really cool well appointed club last weekend. Fantastic crew, stage manager and sound engineer were great to work with. And OMG, the caliber if the sound gear and lighting was top shelf. Upscale crowd of all ages. An example of the exception.

Unfortunately, back to reality​ tonight.

Blue

Edited April 29, 2017 by blue

[peteb]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1493465326' post='3288540']
I see a conveyor belt of players coming out of the music colleges who are at a technical level, a level of ability that couldn't have been dreamed of when I started, but the one thing that many of them can't manage is to sit on a groove. Do they teach simplicity at these colleges?

If you want a dozen great notes in the blink of an eye, they are the players for you but if you want solid, soul wrenching and effective playing don't ask any of those guys.
[/quote]
So it's not just me then who thinks this??

[blue]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1493465326' post='3288540']


I see a conveyor belt of players coming out of the music colleges who are at a technical level, a level of ability that couldn't have been dreamed of when I started, but the one thing that many of them can't manage is to sit on a groove. Do they teach simplicity at these colleges?

If you want a dozen great notes in the blink of an eye, they are the players for you but if you want solid, soul wrenching and effective playing don't ask any of those guys.
[/quote]

I don't have a lot of fast fancy riffs.

As a matter of fact,I try to keep my playing as simple, accurate and as commercial as possible.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1493465326' post='3288540']


I see a conveyor belt of players coming out of the music colleges who are at a technical level, a level of ability that couldn't have been dreamed of when I started, but the one thing that many of them can't manage is to sit on a groove. Do they teach simplicity at these colleges?

If you want a dozen great notes in the blink of an eye, they are the players for you but if you want solid, soul wrenching and effective playing don't ask any of those guys.
[/quote]

I asked a young rather inpressive bass player that posted a bedroom video on Facebook if he had any live band application of his work.

He blocked me.

Blue

[ahpook]

[size=4]Young folks ? Pah ! We were fitter in the war you know[/size]. [size=3]Mind you, in those days you could leave a job in the morning[/size][size=2][size=3] and get a new one in the afternoon.[size=2] [/size][/size]And have you seen the price of milk these days. [size=1]No, I don't trust that Corbyn fellow much either...[/size][/size]

[gjones]

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1493463990' post='3288529']
It doesn't really matter if people want to shred on 6/7s etc, back in the 80's Mark King spawned legions of fans who were manicly slapping their 4 strings(mostly in a way that wouldn't perform a useful musical function within most bands) - this didn't lead to everyone abandoning more traditional playing styles. Based on purely anecdotal evidence, of the bass players I have talked to that have tried extended range instruments, all but one have reverted to more traditional fives or fours because the extended range (and visual presentation) is largely useless for the majority of their playing in a band context.

If someone needs a bass player, they will take someone who can fulfill the role and make everyone else sound good over a 'frustrated lead guitarist' every time, unless they specifically want that shred approach.

This is beautiful playing and shows the musical potential of extended range instruments
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPwMoiKaNOY[/media]
But lets be honest not many people in their right mind would think that it would be a good idea to carry all that extra weight and have all those extra strings to damp if they had a long gig playing punk/rock/blues/folk/soul/funk to get through.
[/quote]

It's a nice sound on the lower strings. I wonder what key the lowest string is tuned to? As the note he plays at 45 secs is at a frequency that, up until now, I thought only elephants would be capable of producing.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

The playing fast thing is pretty simple to explain - it is an easy way to impress people that are easily impressed, it is straightforward to teach and assess, young people tend to like doing everything in a mad rush. Really it is nothing new apart from the fact that people can now post videos on youtube/facebook, whereas in decades past they would have to make the pilgrimmage to their local music shop on a saturday to show off to an audience.

[FinnDave]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1493464585' post='3288535']
There are a number of points raised here, most of which are true to some extent but the situation is not quite as grim as many are suggesting:

[indent=1]1. There is still a decent following for live classic rock. To say that no one under 60 cares about this type of music is nonsense. I’m seeing an audience on a weekly basis predominantly made up of people in the thirties or forties, but with a fair sprinkling of 20 somethings.[/indent]
[indent=1]2. However, kids don’t see rock music as the be all and end all as many people my age did when they were their age. They have many other competing attractions and even those who do like rock music don’t see it as their only outlet for entertainment.[/indent]
[indent=1]3. We have an ageing population in the west and part of the reason why you tend to see more old than younger people at gigs is that there are actually more of them.[/indent]
[indent=1]4. People generally do not have the same level of disposable income as they used to, which has seen the downturn of the pub trade in general and music pubs in particular. This is especially true of the younger end of the market. You have to make a gig more of an event to get an audience out now.[/indent]
[indent=1]5. As someone said above, this has thinned out some of the worse bands and the worse venues. IMO this is a good thing! The better bands and venues are still doing alright.[/indent]
[indent=1]6. The situation is somewhat different in many parts of mainland Europe, where people will still pack venues where there is a live band.[/indent]

You have to bear in mind that things change and rock and roll is no longer the ubiquitous force it once was. However, there will always be a demand for decent live entertainment, especially music.
[/quote]

Well reasoned and hard to disagree with.

[crompers]

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1493462118' post='3288503']
Not to mention the most important factor- the internet has put an end to many things. Even in the 90s you could still have a band, a record label, run a record shop, publish a zine - and make enough money to pay your mortgage. That's all gone, and it's been replaced by collecting likes in the hope that you'll make some pocket money from advertising, by posting click bait. The internet is responsible for killing a lot of culture and livelihoods.
[/quote]
[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1493441304' post='3288308']
the whole industry is dying. No live music in pubs. No one buys music these days,cept for dinosaurs like me.Existing artists only make money by touring and charging $200 a seat minimum.

yet simpletons like me think someone somewhere wants to hear his original music lol

At least recording at home is now at studio quality almost, too bad no one will ever hear it
[/quote]

I respectfully disagree with these points of view, the industry is changing but not dying.

Nowadays bands can record a track, get it up on youtube/spotify and have people listening to it immediately. Generally if the music is good, people will listen.

In the 'good old days' you would have to play the club circuit, hope an A&R guy recognised you and then you might get a deal if the industry considered what you were doing to be marketable.

Technology has completely democratised the process and as a result we have a lot more music available to us and genres are splitting into sub-genres etc at an incredible rate as creativity is abound.

Personally I go to a lot of gigs, seeing bands of various levels of levels of popularity, but generally rather than wandering into a bar and catching an act I have not heard of I will get into the band and then go and see them when/if they come to my city.

There are very few acts nowadays that can hope to get rich from music but then if you love something should you not be prepared to do it for the same wage as someone doing your average job?

People will always want to listen to or make music, the industry will never die, it will just evolve.

[ivansc]

Just that these days there are an awful lot more frogs to kiss before ya find the Prince....

The sad thing with all those solo youtubers is that since the majority DONT play with others, preferring a "pro" backing track, they are never going to be actual musicians.
What they will be is (insert instrument name here) players.
Now they may well be virtuoso (insert instrument name here) players, but what a sad, sterile waste of talent and application.

Looks like since our singer died recently my 60s band will be folding its tent and slipping away, but in the meantime I have been asked to join/form a fairly loose collective of musicians locally who gig like there is no tomorrow. Mostly acoustic or quiet electric stuff in pubs, doesnt pay a huge amount but these guys are out 2-3 nights a week PLUS their Saturday night gigs. Also have a wedding and a NYE gig before I even went looking! About 50/50 guitar and bass.
There is still hope, chaps!

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1493460431' post='3288470']
64, that's cool.We play a lot of biker bars on a consistent basis. However, here are my observations;

1.There's no young bikers to be seen anywhere

2. Bikers are not the big partiers and drinkers I thought they were.

At least not in my neck of the woods.

Blue
[/quote]

Don't think bikes are as popular an image to youngsters these days. Most youngsters would prefer a car and they can pick a car up for same price as a bike these days.

At the Harley bike rallies i go to there is more than enough drinking being done by all age groups but as FinnDave pointed out they are all staying overnight.
There's definitely nowhere near as many rock or biker bars in Scotland as there used to be so i guess you just don't see the "younger" bikers as often.
If you're talking Harley bikers then cost of the bikes usually means its middle-aged or older guys that can afford them and are "usually" more sensible and physically not able to drink as much as the 20yr olds.
Who wants a 2 day hang-over at our age


Dave

Dave

[CamdenRob]

Mrs C has some friends involved in the folky / acousticy type scene here in London where nearly every pub, coffee shop, vegan peace cafe etc. Has a small stage in the corner and a promoter is paid by the venue to provide a sensitive man with a beard to sing songs complaining about stuff. Some of her friends gig most nights, all originals.

Whenever I have been to these gigs I am almost always the only person who buys a beer / coffee / vegan peace biscuit, everyone else including the other acts just drinks tap water all night... whole tables of people with a pint of tap water each... I can't see the venues thinking its worth it for much longer.

Edited April 29, 2017 by CamdenRob

[Guest]

[quote name='PaulGibsonBass' timestamp='1493453873' post='3288393']
Barring some highly unlikely cultural shift I think my generation will probably be the last that wants to be in a band.

I think that's a pity, but I'm baseing that on my experiences and opinion of what I think is good. The younger generations will have different priorities and ideas about what they consider worthwhile.
[/quote]

I completely disagree. Are you saying that young bands are just going to die out one day?
There are a good amount of young bands around, some bad, most mediocre and a few good just like it always has been. The way that music has spread has changed dramatically, but that doesn't mean we're all going to become bedroom-bound ProTools knob twiddlers.
True, there are now fewer venues than bands who want a gig, but I guess people who really want local level live music just have to do a bit of research now.

[project_c]

[quote name='crompers' timestamp='1493470543' post='3288593']
I respectfully disagree with these points of view, the industry is changing but not dying.

Nowadays bands can record a track, get it up on youtube/spotify and have people listening to it immediately. Generally if the music is good, people will listen.

In the 'good old days' you would have to play the club circuit, hope an A&R guy recognised you and then you might get a deal if the industry considered what you were doing to be marketable.

Technology has completely democratised the process and as a result we have a lot more music available to us and genres are splitting into sub-genres etc at an incredible rate as creativity is abound.

Personally I go to a lot of gigs, seeing bands of various levels of levels of popularity, but generally rather than wandering into a bar and catching an act I have not heard of I will get into the band and then go and see them when/if they come to my city.

There are very few acts nowadays that can hope to get rich from music but then if you love something should you not be prepared to do it for the same wage as someone doing your average job?

People will always want to listen to or make music, the industry will never die, it will just evolve.
[/quote]


All of the above is of course great, but the things that have been lost in the process are significant. Nobody buys music any more. It doesn't matter how democratically you can record and publish your music if you still have to stack shelves in Asda during the day. In the UK, there used to be a whole mini-industry around various musical subcultures which was totally free of mainstream dependancy, and which kept huge numbers of people in work. Look at how huge the indie scenes and dance scenes were in the late 80's and throughout the 90's. Those bands and artists made a fairly decent living from playing original and often pretty weird music. Most didn't cash in, but they made enough to pay the rent or mortgage, and feed a family.

And there was a whole chain connected to that: Independent record labels employed loads of people, the records were sent out to distributors who also employed loads of people, the record shops were making money and were central meeting points for people, the venues were full of people seeing the bands, independent magazines were writing about the music and employing loads of people too, people had their own clothing labels that were connected to various music scenes, the list is long. I personally made loads of money from making artwork and flyers for record labels and club nights. And the key is that there was not much mainstream money in any of this, it was all self-sufficient, no google, no youtube, no major label, no sucking up to the lowest common denominator for clicks and likes - just people into music making things happen. And that as a whole industry is 100% dead, so for me I can't see how things are better now just because we have a few plugins and somewhere free to post clickbait videos.