Genzler 12-3 Bass Array

[Phil Starr]

Does anyone have any experience of these?

Genzler 12-3 Bass Array https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItMtFGlKjoo

I've been toying with the idea of using 3" mid high units for bass for a while. As most of you know conventional bass drivers start to beam at relatively low frequencies and most horns only operate at frequencies too high to be much use for bass. The problem is that most of the 3" wide range drivers used for line source PA are too insensitive to be easily adapted for bass use, I'd come to the point where I'd settled on four in line to up the efficiency and chosen the Faital as the most promising unit. Seems someone was way ahead of me.

If you aren't a techie think of this as being like one of those Bose PA's with the long thin bit fixed in front of the sub. It promises a full range frequency response and a broad flat projection of the upper frequencies even when you aren't in line with your speaker. I'd love to hear what anyone who has used one thinks.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Phil Starr

[geoffbyrne]

Don't really have much of a clue what you're talking about, Phil, but it's great to come across someone thinking outside the box.

G.

[DBerriff]

All the reviews of the Genzler array speakers have been extremely positive. Try and find one for sale in the UK though. Bass Direct's stock sold out very quickly which suggests that they are as good as claimed (to-try-is-to-buy). I have ordered one of the 350 combos and I have been waiting since February I think. I still don't know if I will get one from the imminent delivery, but if I do I will report back.

[pete.young]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1493558586' post='3289093']


If you aren't a techie think of this as being like one of those Bose PA's with the long thin bit fixed in front of the sub. It promises a full range frequency response and a broad flat projection of the upper frequencies even when you aren't in line with your speaker. I'd love to hear what anyone who has used one thinks.
[/quote]

Missing link perhaps - http://www.genzleramplification.com/product/BA12-3/BASS-ARRAY12-3.html ?

Dunno, but I did see someone using a Bose L1 with the bigger of the two subs as a bass rig the other day. It sounded really good!

[Phil Starr]

Thanks for the link, forgot to paste it, there's also a review on You Tube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItMtFGlKjoo

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1493632336' post='3289505']
Don't really have much of a clue what you're talking about, Phil, but it's great to come across someone thinking outside the box.

G.
[/quote]

Hi Geoff, as someone spotted I forgot to put the links in.

I'm happy to write up something about the theory behind this design though if anyone would find it helpful.

[Passinwind]

I've heard the Genzler cabs several times, as well as a few Audiokinesis cabs that use those 3 inch Faital drivers. I also have a pair of the 4" ones in a DIY cab at home. I think they lend themselves very well to out of the box thinking, both literally and figuratively. As an aside, for many peoples' wants and needs I don't feel it's necessary to match sensitivity to the woofer spec, or even desirable in many cases. Duke just uses one 3 paired with a Kappaite 3012LF in his most popular cab, FWIW.

[Phil Starr]

Hi Charlie, how do the cabs sound in your opinion then?

The design spec i have in my head is a full range cab but suited more to bass, shifting the crossover point away from the 1-4kHz level where our ears are most sensitive to the crossover distortions and not worrying too much about anything above about 12kHz whih will never get past the inductance of the pickup coils even if it was useful for bass.

I'm happy to experiment with non flat cabs for bass use but the sensitivity of these 3" units is in the 88-91dB/W range with 20W handling typically. I want to partner them with bass drivers of 96-99dB/W quoted. Crossing over an octave below 1K would mean a midrange sensitivity down to the 3" units and power handling would become an issue, crossing over low. I'm looking specifically at the 3" units designed for line source designs which have become available and I suspect Duke is using something else to partner the 3012LF. I don't suppose you know what he uses? The advantage of using four drivers is that it also gives you some control of the off axis dispersion of midrange.

[stevie]

I've never heard the Genzler cab, but I rather like it. I do think that there was more design input from the marketing department than from the engineering department, but there's nothing wrong with that.

The negative for me is that the vertical midrange dispersion is going to be limited - not as good as a separate, larger midrange driver and not even as good as a 12" driver on its own. The upside is that the mids should sound really nice, have good horizontal dispersion and will extend quite high even without an HF unit - I suspect as high as is necessary for a bass guitar cabinet.

It's nicely styled, and even though the "line array" sales pitch makes me cringe a bit, the product shows some imagination at a time when everybody else is selling an Eminence 12 and a bullet tweeter. Yes, all right.

[DBerriff]

What marketing department? Genzler is a tiny company.

I have one of their new 10" combos and I can assure you that the mids do sound really nice. I have never heard my NXT EUB sound better. The design angles the array upwards slightly but all the feedback from US users suggests that dispersion does work really well, including for the player.

If it is not a line array - what is it? And what makes you cringe? I had not really read the copy; I do take exception to the use of the word [i]exponential[/i]. I bought on the basis of previous experience with Jeff's designs which work well and reliably.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1493967893' post='3292153']
Hi Charlie, how do the cabs sound in your opinion then?

The design spec i have in my head is a full range cab but suited more to bass, shifting the crossover point away from the 1-4kHz level where our ears are most sensitive to the crossover distortions and not worrying too much about anything above about 12kHz whih will never get past the inductance of the pickup coils even if it was useful for bass.

I'm happy to experiment with non flat cabs for bass use but the sensitivity of these 3" units is in the 88-91dB/W range with 20W handling typically. I want to partner them with bass drivers of 96-99dB/W quoted. Crossing over an octave below 1K would mean a midrange sensitivity down to the 3" units and power handling would become an issue, crossing over low. I'm looking specifically at the 3" units designed for line source designs which have become available and I suspect Duke is using something else to partner the 3012LF. I don't suppose you know what he uses? The advantage of using four drivers is that it also gives you some control of the off axis dispersion of midrange.
[/quote]

Phil, that 20 watt rating for the Faitals is broadband and goes up drastically when crossed over north of 1.5K, which I'm pretty sure is what Duke does. He likes to leverage the "growl" off the woofer and his crossovers include a switch to enhance or negate that as desired. He rates the 3012LF as more like 94dB real world IIRC. The last time I talked to him he was using the Faitals, for sure, but I will double check today as I need to give him some feedback on the 18 / 6 / 2x3 cab he sent up to our Bass Convention in Seattle last weekend. Whatever he is doing, it works exceptionally well IMO. We are pretty good friends, but that came from professional respect first, FWIW.

I've also spent a little time with Jeff Genzler at NAMM and really liked both the 12-3 array cab and the new 10 inch derivative, which I think Jeff said uses Eminence 2.5" drivers. Being NAMM, I only really heard much of them in slap mode though.

[stevie]

[quote name='DBerriff' timestamp='1494001363' post='3292550']
What marketing department? Genzler is a tiny company.

I have one of their new 10" combos and I can assure you that the mids do sound really nice. I have never heard my NXT EUB sound better. The design angles the array upwards slightly but all the feedback from US users suggests that dispersion does work really well, including for the player.

If it is not a line array - what is it? And what makes you cringe? I had not really read the copy; I do take exception to the use of the word [i]exponential[/i]. I bought on the basis of previous experience with Jeff's designs which work well and reliably.
[/quote]

I'm sure it's a great cab. I thought I more or less said so. The others in this thread will tell you how critical I normally am about commercial boxes. I didn't know the midrange drivers were tilted up - that sounds like a good idea.

When I hear the term 'line array' I think of the concert-type systems first developed by l'Acoustics in the 1980s, which are a bit more than four drivers on top of each other. I don't really think it meets the criterion for a line array, which is why it makes me cringe a bit. Only a bit though. What's a bit of marketing spin if the product is properly engineered and built?

[DBerriff]

You did indeed say it was a great cab. I was adding practical reinforcement.

It can see it finding use for double bass amplification. First I need to find the right double bass.

[Opticaleye]

I loved the 12-3 when I tried one. A very smooth upper mid/ high end. At the time I wanted a taller cab to use as a one cab solution so I bought a TKS1126 (and then another ) but this was a fantastic cab unlike anything else I've tried.

[Phil Starr]

I think there is some confusion between line source and line array, though the principle is more or less the same in how it controls dispersion. Essentially line source is what an old fashioned column speaker did, lot's of separate speakers making up a column forms a line array, which gives you lots of extra things you can do with angles, phase control and so on. Who'd have thought an advertising dept. would confuse those two?

It's pretty hard to give any exact figures for how power is divided by a crossover as it depends exactly what you are playing but I've some old rule of thumb figures from Eminence that at 500Hz 40% of the power goes into the tweeter and at 3000Hz its about 20%. That's for full range music so it'd possibly be less for bass but any distortion would drive the power through the high pass section up dramatically.

Thanks for the information from everyone who has tried one. It looks like a concept that can work well then as ever the implementation is probably what counts.

Stevie, I quite like the broad flat projection this sort of system promises. I know you've been looking at how a bassist can get to hear his rig better in the sort of cramped stages we generally play on. I'm looking at this design as a way of controlling room resonances by cutting down on reflections, and incidentally improving the bands experience. We've both been arguing for years that the small horn drivers available aren't really relevant to most of what a bass does and a mid range driver would be more helpful, the problem is that there wasn't a lot of availability of suitable drivers. The advent of the Bose style line source plus mini sub PA means there are a a range of drivers like the Faital to choose from. After the positive responses I'm keen to give it a go. I'm hoping you'll help with the crossover

Edited May 6, 2017 by Phil Starr

[DBerriff]

I will let you know how well the concept works on a gig after tonight.

Jeff Genzler has steadily refined his designs and works with bassists to give them the features they want. He is active on "another" forum and is genuinely interested in learning from his users. I suspect he would smile at the concept of him having an advertising department.

I don't know why you are getting hung up on terminology.

An array is an ordered series or arrangement. So a line array is an arrangement of elements in a line. And looking at my cab, that is what we have - an array of small speakers in a vertical line. Even Wikipedia says: "A line array is a loudspeaker system that is made up of a number of usually identical loudspeaker elements mounted in a line and fed in phase, to create a near-line source of sound". It all seems present and correct to me.

The front baffle has a subtle angle. The design seems to be optimised for 2 cabs, although crazy Americans with oodles of disposable money are trying 3. I just wish it wasn't all so expensive, or that the pound had not fallen in value quite so much.

Edited May 6, 2017 by DBerriff

[chris_b]

Jeff Genzler has always been a class act. His amps and cabs are some of the best.

I can't believe Fender had such a brain fart when Genz arrived with the Kamen takeover and they completely failed to capitalise on the gem that had dropped into their lap!

[DBerriff]

Having been a director of a company that was taken over, I will guess that Jeff is going to be a lot happier in his current situation, and we will get innovative bass gear rather than stuff that keeps marketing and accountants happy.

[stevie]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1494060218' post='3292889']
Jeff Genzler has always been a class act. His amps and cabs are some of the best.

I can't believe Fender had such a brain fart when Genz arrived with the Kamen takeover and they completely failed to capitalise on the gem that had dropped into their lap!
[/quote]

Totally agree with that assessment.

[stevie]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1494053831' post='3292835']
Stevie, I quite like the broad flat projection this sort of system promises. I know you've been looking at how a bassist can get to hear his rig better in the sort of cramped stages we generally play on. I'm looking at this design as a way of controlling room resonances by cutting down on reflections, and incidentally improving the bands experience. We've both been arguing for years that the small horn drivers available aren't really relevant to most of what a bass does and a mid range driver would be more helpful, the problem is that there wasn't a lot of availability of suitable drivers. The advent of the Bose style line source plus mini sub PA means there are a a range of drivers like the Faital to choose from. After the positive responses I'm keen to give it a go. I'm hoping you'll help with the crossover
[/quote]

Sounds like a project, Phil. Are you going invest in the Faital 12" too? I'd be happy to help out.

Edited May 6, 2017 by stevie

[DBerriff]

The concept worked well, as I have described in another thread. I got a positive response from the band members; normally they never comment on my sound.