EQing a PA bass rig

[la bam]

evening all.

probably an odd question, but aside from my Ashdown evoii rig, i have x2 good quality yamaha dxr12 active pa speakers.

i use a zoom b3 from my bass for the ashdown and im interested in using the b3 running into the yamahas as a separate rig, with there being so many amp modellers etc i thought it might do a great job.

question is, with these being a 12" speaker with tweeter/horn, and not a designated bass cab, is there any specific eq / frequency is should be enhancing or minimizing to get a good sound out of these speakers? I can do it all on the b3 so itd be nice and simple.

effectively it could end up being a nice compact rig (as a 1x12) with the ability to enhance into a powerful 2x12 rig.

Edited May 1, 2017 by la bam

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

They're PA tops, meant to be used with separate subwoofers handling the lows. They're not going to work well with bass.

[Phil Starr]

Well if you already have them then suck it and see. They'll either sound how you want or not. With DSP controlling the sound it's unlikely you'd damage anything, but it's always wise to start quiet and then turn up gradually..

The problems are likely to be that Yamaha only quote response down to 52Hz, if that's -10db it's going to be bass lite, the cab is ABS and may be buzzy at low frequencies and the electronic speaker management may choke what you can do as it limits/compresses loud bass peaks. Equally with a flat response and designed to cover the full range they might sound quite nice. My suspicion is that they may sound great as on stage monitors with the bass gently rolled off but you'll then need a little bit of extra bass output from the FOH to keep the band sounding balanced. You don't need us to guess though, just try it.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Phil Starr

[Phil Starr]

You might want to look at this thread if you haven't already the third post is the relevant one http://basschat.co.uk/topic/305026-powered-cabs/

[la bam]

Cheers, I've seen that. Similar kind of discussion. I'll give the Dxrs a try out when i get chance.
I'm was a professional dj by trade, and these Drs do go low, I was surprised at the rating they have been given (55ish)?

I was just curious as we all (or a lot of us) put our bass through a pa why we do t spend time getting a good pa sound?

[Phil Starr]

I think I get where you are coming from now. Recorded bass sounds really punch through the DXR's and you are hoping you might get that punchy bass through them yourself?

The thing is, you realise, that the recorded bass has been eq'd in the mix. Is that right?

The thing is that in most if not all cases studio recordings undergo a lot more than just eq'ing. The first thing most engineers do is filter out all the subsonics often at surprisingly high frequencies There will commonly be little bass below 50Hz. maybe higher. Then they will limit all the peaks from the bass and maybe add quite alarming amounts of compression. Add in an octaver which will add in a lot of harmonic content to thicken out the higher notes on the bass making an overall bassier sound. The 50Hz filter will remove the damaging tones though. Lastly once the whole mix is finished they will compress the whole mix which means the bass is compressed even more.

Live bass has much more dynamic range, though there is an increasing tendency for live engineers to follow studio practices, so the FOH PA sound is often compressed and filtered giving the 'disco sound' to some bands. That's why a lot of folk on here, sometimes sensibly, insist on taking big rigs with them to gigs.

Your B3 isn't going to do all that unless you program it to. Some patches are going to boost the bass and fail to filter subsonics making it impossible for your poor DXR's and some will sound great. You are going to have to keep the volumes down whilst you experiment and learn to keep all the really deep stuff out of the feed to the DXR's. the interaction between the electronics in the DXR's and the Zoom are going to be 'interesting'.

[hamfist]

Just as a general response about using PA cabs as bass cabs, I have done it a few times and it has worked well, with no loss of perceived bass at all.
The main thing is that most full range PA cabs are not built to take high volumes of bass guitar-type frequencies, which are typically of quite a high dynamic range when not hugely compressed. Therefore your volume will be slightly limited compared to similar priced bass guitar cabs IME.
I have gigged a couple of times recently with a couple of STudiospares passive "12" plus tweeter" cabs, driven by a 1000W power amp. Being careful with the volume it has actually made a very decent sound.
Having said that I do feel that they will not cope in a lot of venues (and I typically provide all bass guitar sound from my rig) so I am in the process of getting a good proper bass cab again.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1493796672' post='3290650']
Your B3 isn't going to do all that unless you program it to. Some patches are going to boost the bass and fail to filter subsonics making it impossible for your poor DXR's and some will sound great. You are going to have to keep the volumes down whilst you experiment and learn to keep all the really deep stuff out of the feed to the DXR's. the interaction between the electronics in the DXR's and the Zoom are going to be 'interesting'.
[/quote]

True, the B3 isnt going to do everything but EQing out anything under 50hz and using a decent amount of compression would be a good start.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1493886966' post='3291483']
True, the B3 isnt going to do everything but EQing out anything under 50hz and using a decent amount of compression would be a good start.
[/quote]Yep, that's the way to go. Using a high pass filter after the B3 (thumpinator) would be an extra which would probably let you play without any worries too, but try the Yammies out at low volumes first and see if you like the sound before spending out any more money. Let us know how it sounds too

Edited May 4, 2017 by Phil Starr

[la bam]

Will do!
Cheers everyone.

[la bam]

Ok, ive finally got round to doing this today.

Albeit at house levels, but good enough to get a decent opinion.

Firstly, its important to remember these speakers are designed by Nexo - a quality name in PA systems, and i chose them as i needed quality volume and sound for when djing.

Secondly, its a real easy set up. The cabs, despite being active are around 13kg each and an easy lift. I have used my BB424 into my Zoom b3, straight into the mixer unit on the back of the dxr using the jack input (of mixer line 2). Its also quite a small set up - hadnt realised how much narrower and shallower this cab was compared to my ABM 115 or 210. Its probably only twice as big as the tiny ashdown after 8 i have for the house.

OK, first test - pedal on bypass and just the bass. This exceeded my expectations as bass guitars especially dont work great when plugged straight into the pa without some kind of di, eq or effect. The sound was hi fi clear but not harsh. Neither though was it bass heavy, just a nice well balanced modern bass sound across the range. It sounded better to me on the P bass pickup, rather than the bridge or both, that selection just seemed to roll out more of a bass sound than the other.

Secondly, I decided to go through the zooms b3 amp simulators. Using the ABM i love the bassman, ampeg and gk sims. Using the dxr these sounded different, but they would as there wasnt any ashdown sound to colour as well. I did find most, if not all needed a bass boost from the eq pedal on the b3 to get a nice deeper sound, but the mids and top end were great as they were flat. The bassman and Ampeg seemed to do the heavier bassier sounds which were more in line with a heavy rig.

I then skimmed through several other sounds for genres i have set up on the b3 (for rock, soul, 60s, etc) and they all worked well. Some were fairly uninspiring, but some were great. Most were very useable for gigging.

Now, one effect i have never liked is the octaver - ive just never got on with it, but using an octaver in this set up works really well. This is where you get the low end sounding really low like from a 15. Useful if thats the sound youre after.

Volume wise - having used these for years for djing i know they have a phenomenal throw - much much better than youd imagine. The kind of throw that doesnt seem excessively loud when youre close, but is just as loud at the other side of the room. There is very little disipation as you walk out away from it. However, these were very loud just in this set up. I couldnt get the volume up anywhere near 9 o clock (6 is off) without it being too loud for the house - but we all know as soon as you get a drummer involved etc its a different ball game. Also, these speakers are dual volume, where 6 oclock to 12 is for line level, and 12 to 6 is mic level. Im not totally sure what that means for bass (is it line or mic level?) but id be surprised if you needed it over 12 oclock.

The only thing i will say is you wont get the magical "heft" or coloured tone from a manufacturers amp or birch cab which seems to emminate from a rig like the ABM or Ampeg, the best way to describe the sound (if you can make any sense of this) is a good hi fi sound but without the air moving feel you get from a big wooden cab and driver, despite the sounds being similar.
It does give a very clear sound, which, i suspect is great for stage monitoring or stage amp. I suspect most will have to play with something like the B3 to get the sounds they are after.

Also, not forgetting you have a DI thru in the mixer section at the back of the cab, which is a nice addition to have.

As i said earlier, this is at fairly low volumes, but i also have another dxr12 if i wanted to link to get a 2x12 which would be interesting.

Edited May 8, 2017 by la bam

[funkle]

There is a high pass filter built into the Zoom B3, BTW.

The Ac Bs Pre is a clone of the Fishman Acoustic Bass Preamp, which has a variable high pass filter built in. I don't have my pedal in front of me, but I think it's the 'depth' control that controls the cut off frequency.

Using that pedal you can cut out subsonics, have a flexible EQ in the same slot, a slot for a compressor, and still have another slot for an effect or cab sim. I've used it that way for a long time.

Edited May 20, 2017 by funkle

[la bam]

Cheers, I'll have a look at that.