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[fretmeister]

It is mighty tempting.

Is the FR800 passive cooled? Or is there an annoying fan in it? I couldn't see that info on the site.

[Jack]

Cheap, tall and passive? What about a tall PA cab such as a 2x15"? I remember a TB thread a while back about a JBL unit that got great reviews. I think that was the kind of thinking and talking that was popular at the time that got the Greenboy designs off the ground.

Is the FR800 passive cooled? Or is there an annoying fan in it? I couldn't see that info on the site.

More importantly, there's no volume control on that thing is there? Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[fretmeister]

I'm less worried about a volume control as I'm used to using rack pre and power amp rigs where I left the power amp at max most of the time.

But it is still an odd thing to do as there are preamps out there where their volume controls are too damn sensitive for small adjustments.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 24, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[alexclaber]

I'm still interested in the stacking issue though. Can we expand on how and why a pair of vertically stacked speakers might be unwise in a standard gigging situation? Accusations of overkill don't count, by the way! ☺

We had people order two before and I've said "start with one, buy another if you need it". No-one has yet ended up with two Big Twin 2s!

When you say "stood right by the rig" how close to it are we talking?

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 28, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Jack]

Then tilt the cab back. I love my Markbass wedge, but there are all sorts of free ways of doing it too.

[stevie]

The main problem with stacking full-range cabs is that you get weird cancellations between the tweeters because they are so far apart. It's better just to have a single HF unit at the top.

I know what you mean about hearing yourself up close. It's been one of my concerns too, as most bass cab manufacturers don't really address the problem. You need a cab with good vertical dispersion in the mids and highs to hear yourself properly. Or, as Jack says, tilt your cab.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[stevie]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476']
Honestly, if you truly believe that then there's no point in me continuing this discussion.
[/quote]

That's fine by me. You seem to forget that I didn't start this discussion, Alex. You barged into a perfectly sensible thread to insist that your speaker doesn't have the directivity problems that other similar speakers have. Well, you're also entitled to your opinion, but all that we've had from you so far is opinion - waffle about how you manipulate break-up modes, a load of advertising claims, and now a threat to flounce off - still having provided no proof of your original assertion.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476']
Furthermore we use an excellent compression driver on a large waveguide, nothing like a "cheap tweeter".
[/quote]

Well, cheap is very subjective term. And as you say, I'm entitled to my opinion. What is it - the Faital Pro HF102? 30 quid from Blue Aran, right? Little one-inch coil? Why do I think it's cheap? Because you'd never see a puny compression driver like that in a £1,000 cab from a reputable PA company - that's why. The RCF 745 uses a 1.4" exit driver with a 4" coil that retails at £350 on its own. The crossover point is a very impressive 650Hz, which enables them to properly manage the off-axis response of the system.

When you also think that it comes with 700w of lightweight power in two separate ampliers, an electronic crossover, DSP processing and protection - and is available from lots of retail outlets at £100 less than the Big Twin - there is little wonder that it looks like a much better option for FRFR. And I think I should be able to say so on this forum without being badgered by a commercial user flogging his competitive product. [MODS: are you reading this?]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476']
Regarding some of my other points, I look forward to seeing your example of a 3-way passive crossover that is totally unaffected by voice coil heating.
[/quote]

Then I would simply point you to products from JBL, EAW, Martin, Community, Nexo, Yorkville, RCF. Or even ATC. They all make passive 3-ways. This voice coil heating business seems to be your way of justifying cheaping out on the crossover. No crossover components on the LF, therefore it's not effected by heating of the woofer voice coil. Very clever. Very cheap. Not impressed with that at all. How are things down at the Winchester Club, by the way?

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476']
But the proof is in the pudding - we have a number of bassists using our cabs specifically for FRFR modelling applications with things like Kempers, and they've all been extremely impressed. We also sell an active version of the Big Baby 2, the FR800, which is growing in popularity as more bassists discover quite how good it is. The feedback is out there, the reviews are out there. We have demo cabs available to borrow. We have a one month trial period for all customers in Europe. It isn't in our interest to sell the Emperor's New Clothes as they'd just get returned.
[/quote]

That's very nice for you, but I'm still waiting for some tangible proof that your speakers don't beam off-axis. And you seem to have changed the subject.

[EBS_freak]

Should point out, my 745s are awesome all round - I have sung their praises numerous times. I use them for my Kemper, guitar and bass... and in my band, with a couple of 8004s underneath them, it's quite a formidable system.

I can use them as backline or as foh as I'm mostly on IEMs now.

At one stage, I did contemplate some serious PA wedges for my bass dep work... but I just tend to take my EBS cabs with either one of my EBS heads or the Kemper with the cab sim off. That's the only thing about the 745s, people still do seem to like the classic bass look - but the 745s absolutely piss over any bass cab I've used.

As stated, that compression horn really works wonders - and a horn like that is normally only in heavier wooden cabs with more than double the retail. A real smart move from RCF making an absolutely killer lightweight top.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 28, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1493844364' post='3291280']
A tilt back solution would certainly be a smaller way to spread those higher frequencies! The silly thing is that I use a pretty flat 'kick-back' type combo for a weeky house band gig. We're playing the blues, so I only need the thump from that one! It is a little underpowered though, so it still fits the bill.
[/quote]
I was looking at some serious wedge monitors as my backline, maybe even DBs - where's JTUK when you need him? The only problem is that they don't go as deep as maybe other cabs... but having said that, maybe thats a good thing, as things can get swamp on stage. If you need the serious lows, get some proper subs to use out front and keep everything behind the FOH hpfed. Thats what I ended up doing anyway. So yeah, maybe one day - but as I stated, there's only one band that I play with now that I don't use IEMs with.
[quote]
The RCF stuff looks intriguing, although ugly as sin.
[/quote]
In a thread that mentions barefaced? Have to agree though, the ART 7s are a bit fugly compared to say any other module in the RCF range... but hey, find me something at that price point that has those kinda drivers and that kind of amp with the DSP that tunes the cab flat in them.
[quote]
I preumse the plastic is sturdy? The response of the 745 goes to 45hz at -3db, the same 'number' as my MB NY121s, although MB don't state whether that's -3 or-10db. I do notice with a fiver that the lower range rolls off, and while the usefulness of that real bottom end is debatable, it would be nice to have the choice, even if I do reign it in 90% of the time. The 30hz of the Big Twin is appealing on that front, although I realise I'm listening with my eyes to a degree there.
[/quote]
The ABS plastic is very sturdy - and internally, it's also braced. Theres a guy from Trinity Productions on YouTube that takes ones apart - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ireX_kcQbkk

You'll see from the SMAART response, it's about as FRFR as you could ever want. In short, it's a pretty unique, awesome piece of kit at that price point. For a lot of bands, two of these will replace a pair of 12s with a pair of subs - to use one or a pair as a standalone rig for bass or guitar (hey, stereo guitar rigs are fun) is in the realm of getting super serious and price for price, will outperform pretty much, if not all, offerings from any bass specific manufacturers, powered or passive - because nobody put speakers like these in their cabs at this kind of price point.

[alexclaber]

Ironically it's the smaller gigs where the height would be of most benefit- sometimes I'm pinned up again the rig, right foot by the high-hat stand, left foot by the keyboard stand. The high end is firing between my legs, brushing my nutsack on the way through! 😄

Yes, the small stage dilemma. One approach taken is to use a wedge cab but the problem with that is that small stages tend to go hand in hand with relatively low ceilings, so you end up with your sound bouncing off the ceiling, that sound mixes with the direct sound out front (and at other bandmates' listening positions) and you end up with a loss of clarity for everyone else, hence why we don't make wedge bass cabs. Your other suggestion of a very tall rig ends up with the problem that if you're standing that close to it you simply can't turn it up to be balanced in the mix for the rest of the band/audience without them being drowned out at your listening position.

So the best solution on these smallest stages is to put your bass rig somewhere further away, even the other side of the drummer, firing across the stage. That gives the cab the space to disperse the sound vertically to your ears without suffering excessive ceiling bounce and the space for you to turn it up without ending up with an unbalanced mix at your listening position.

Back to the dispersion subject - the sound coming from any cone driver starts with the movement of the voice coil former. If a driver has an infinitely stiff one piece diaphragm then it will generate sound equally at all frequencies at all parts of the diaphragm. If the driver's diaphragm has any degree of flexibility then it's radiating area will shrink with increasing frequency (decreasing wavelength). The rate at which the radiating area shrinks can be controlled by varying the cone stiffness, cone damping, surround stiffness, surround damping, the relative masses of all the moving parts, etc. Get that right and your 12" driver acts as a progressively smaller driver with increasing frequency, thus shifting the beaming frequency higher and higher.

This then allows the crossover point to be higher than in a conventional design which assumes a pistonic woofer (not that they ever are!) which allows the use of a smaller compression driver. Increasing the power handling and lower frequency extension of a compression driver is an engineering nightmare, with everything you do to improve those two parameters having a negative effect on its sonic performance as a high frequency driver (greater moving mass is bad, greater inductance is bad, larger diaphragm is bad, greater throat compression is bad, etc etc). Hence, getting the same audio quality from a compression driver which can be crossed over an octave lower than another increases the cost about fivefold.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

So the best solution on these smallest stages is to put your bass rig somewhere further away, even the other side of the drummer, firing across the stage. That gives the cab the space to disperse the sound vertically to your ears without suffering excessive ceiling bounce and the space for you to turn it up without ending up with an unbalanced mix at your listening position.

use inears and use a bass rig to balance with your front of house if isn't up to the job of pushing bass out... or sack off the bass rig and use inears with the foh taking care of everything. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[fretmeister]

Alex

Have you tried the FR800 with a modern modeller (Helix / Kemper / Fractal) for guitar use?
I have no doubt it would be a great fit for bass, but having 1 rig is very appealing to me.

Are they only built to order or do you have stock? I'm wondering if I should request a visit and bring my Helix down.

[EBS_freak]

Alex

Have you tried the FR800 with a modern modeller (Helix / Kemper / Fractal) for guitar use?
I have no doubt it would be a great fit for bass, but having 1 rig is very appealing to me.

Are they only built to order or do you have stock? I'm wondering if I should request a visit and bring my Helix down.

I believe he does trials? - so you should be able to get one to use in familiar surroundings? Certainly worth giving him a call. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[molan]

use inears and use a bass rig to balance with your front of house if isn't up to the job of pushing bass out... or sack off the bass rig and use inears with the foh taking care of everything.

I never understand how someone can play in a band where they consistently can't hear the self on stage.

It's not really that complicated to set a band up so everyone can hear their own sound plus enough of the rest of the musicians that they can perform professionally.

Using in-ears can make a real difference but I know a lot of people find them either uncomfortable or struggle because they can't 'feel' the input from the rest of the band.

I find using decent quality cabs, putting a little time into setting up amp/bass and actually talking to other band members to get a sensible on-stage balance does the trick every time.

One thing that might upset this would be to stick my cab on the other side of the stage and have it firing across the other band members and forcing them to have a stage dominated by over-loud bass response. If I needed to do that to hear my cab I'd be selling it very quickly and getting a decent new one that simply worked how it ought to Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Dood]

I never understand how someone can play in a band where they consistently can't hear the self on stage.

It's not really that complicated to set a band up so everyone can hear their own sound plus enough of the rest of the musicians that they can perform professionally.

Using in-ears can make a real difference but I know a lot of people find them either uncomfortable or struggle because they can't 'feel' the input from the rest of the band.

I find using decent quality cabs, putting a little time into setting up amp/bass and actually talking to other band members to get a sensible on-stage balance does the trick every time.

One thing that might upset this would be to stick my cab on the other side of the stage and have it firing across the other band members and forcing them to have a stage dominated by over-loud bass response. If I needed to do that to hear my cab I'd be selling it very quickly and getting a decent new one that simply worked how it ought to

I think the point was that having to stand right in front of your cabinet on small stages meant that the sound were firing directly in to the backs of your knees and thus placing it further away meant you were actually getting the sound from the front of the cabinet. So, not the fault of the cabinet, whatever shape or size. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

I think the point was that having to stand right in front of your cabinet on small stages meant that the sound were firing directly in to the backs of your knees and thus placing it further away meant you were actually getting the sound from the front of the cabinet. So, not the fault of the cabinet, whatever shape or size.

Oh to play the Tickled Trout where the d&b monitors would eradicate this entire problem. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[molan]

I think the point was that having to stand right in front of your cabinet on small stages meant that the sound were firing directly in to the backs of your knees and thus placing it further away meant you were actually getting the sound from the front of the cabinet. So, not the fault of the cabinet, whatever shape or size.

I've always found there are some cabs with long throws and some that have a closer field (no idea what the physics is with this though, lol).

I currently have a couple of, very different, amp/cab setups that work just fine firing into the back of my legs. If I had to dump a cab across the stage, or 4 metres behind me, then I'd definitely get rid of it rather than trying to 'fight' against it. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Dood]

Oh to play the Tickled Trout where the d&b monitors would eradicate this entire problem.

So many venues I've had to play where the balancing act required to get all the musicians in to one tiny space were the least of our problems! We can but dream. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Conan]

EBS_freak said:

Oh to play the Tickled Trout where the d&b monitors would eradicate this entire problem.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Dood]

I've always found there are some cabs with long throws and some that have a closer field (no idea what the physics is with this though, lol).

I currently have a couple of, very different, amp/cab setups that work just fine firing into the back of my legs. If I had to dump a cab across the stage, or 4 metres behind me, then I'd definitely get rid of it rather than trying to 'fight' against it.

Yeah, I agree with your first point that some cabinets I have played with have a massive roll off of clarity as you move from their fronts round to the sides and some that are pretty woolly sounding (as an example) that seem to get lost in the mix the further you get way from them. I'm sure the resident 'experts' will be along to tell us why.

Second point, I suppose that ultimately it's what works for one person may be completely different to another, for so many reasons. I were mainly referring to JL's 'nut sack' comment and possible ways that could help JL in hearing himself. I don't however think that placing a cabinet further away from you so that you aren't right on top of it is fighting it though? Maybe I am misunderstanding you, placing the cabinet away from you isn't a fault of the cabinet, nor is angling the cabinet upward so you can hear it more clearly. You may have to elaborate!

Me personally, If anything, I don't want a cabinet that can't deliver across a stage (when required to). I'd ditch a cabinet that only offered me a very small aperture (if you want to call it that) where I can hear it clearly? I dunno, maybe I'm just not the 'standing still' type ha! Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

So many venues I've had to play where the balancing act required to get all the musicians in to one tiny space were the least of our problems! We can but dream.

You'd love the Tickled Trout in Wye. Full compliment of roadies, front of house crew, separate monitoring crew, d&b monitors in abundance for all... and to top it off, in exchange for your night of entertainment, a hefty pay check. No rider is too much, you have your own private wing to get ready for the gig and if requested, fluffers are on hand to get you prepared. Hell, you may even get use of a helicopter to get you to and from the venue so you don't have to mingle with the common folk.

Just don't forget to wear your best strides for the occasion.

Make no mistake, you won't have any problems hearing yourself at the Tickled Trout.

* so I've heard. I clearly don't move in the circles that are worthy of playing at the aforementioned venue. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[stevie]

I've always found there are some cabs with long throws and some that have a closer field (no idea what the physics is with this though, lol).

I currently have a couple of, very different, amp/cab setups that work just fine firing into the back of my legs. If I had to dump a cab across the stage, or 4 metres behind me, then I'd definitely get rid of it rather than trying to 'fight' against it.

Well the physics is quite simple. With most bass cabs, you lose the midrange and higher frequencies when you are standing at an angle off to the side or above your cab. Without those frequencies, note definition disappears. Just like turning the treble control right down makes it difficult to understand speech.

When you're standing close to and above your cab, you need a design that will direct those mid and high frequencies up to your ears as well as into the audience. Most bass cabs don't do that. Even the ones that have tweeters use bullets that send the sound straight forward past your knees. There may be more, but the only cabs I know that try to deal with this problem are the Greenboy 3-ways and the Audiokinesis cabs, which are fitted with a 90 x 90 horn, i.e. a vertical dispersion of 90 degrees designed specifically to reach your ears when you are in front of the cab. There may be others that I'm not familiar with - and you can always tilt your cab.

I thought that the Barefaced, at least the 1 x 12", would be quite good from this point of view, as I think it has a horn with a vertical dispersion angle of 70 degrees, but it seems you have to place it behind the drummer to hear it. Oh well. I would also mention the Basschat DIY cab II, which was designed with this particular problem in mind and which sounds quite clear even when you are directly in front of it.

Edit - I'd say that cabs with a separate 5 or 6-inch midrange driver also direct the sound towards your ears quite well, at least in theory, because they double the frequency at which the cab starts to beam. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353