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[EBS_freak]

Molan - Same with off axis and on axis micing. Off axis reduces the treble response... which when micing up ear splitting harsh treble guitar amps, can be a sneaky trick to help tame those highs.

Edited May 4, 2017 by EBS_freak

[Dood]

..., then I'd definitely get rid of it rather than trying to 'fight' against it.

On reflection, I think I see what you are saying. If the only way you can hear a cabinet is by placing it miles away then it isn't ideal for situations where you can't get the distance and thus one that works close up as well is a better option. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[alexclaber]

It's amazing how you can say one thing on a forum and it be so misunderstood. Let me clarify.

IF, and only if, you can't hear your cab when standing right in front of it, then the best solution on a small stage is to get further away from it. If you can't move yourself away from it then the only option is to move the cab further away from you. It doesn't matter what the cab is (assuming its loud enough so its a dispersion, not output issue), increasing distance from it will move you closer to being on-axis without having to point it at the ceiling.

Based on my own experiences, our testing, and feedback from now thousands of customers, Barefaced cabs are particularly good at NOT needing you to stand at a distance, their dispersion is far far better than the norm (because we've put a lot of effort into making cabs with better dispersion as I think it's one of the most critical factors in getting great live sound from venue to venue).

All I'm doing is explaining solutions to a hypothetical problem for someone who is considering purchasing our cabs and pointing out that he doesn't need to buy two cabs, one will be sufficient - and that hypothetical problem is not that likely to be a real problem because of the performance of the cabs!

Regarding the vertical dispersion of the Big Twin 2 (vertical 212) vs the Big Baby 2 (112), the BT2 is slightly easier to hear when you're up close on a confined space, which is contrary to stevie's assumption based on the oversimplified physics. As I keep repeating, treating all drivers of a given nominal diameter of having identical dispersion due to an assumption of 100% pistonic behaviour is deeply misleading. The other option is two Big Baby 2 cabs, where the increased stacked height helps out for taller bassists or confined stages and having two HF drivers with independent adjustment gives quite a lot of control with respect to varied room acoustics and stage layouts.

[alexclaber]

Have you tried the FR800 with a modern modeller (Helix / Kemper / Fractal) for guitar use?

I have no doubt it would be a great fit for bass, but having 1 rig is very appealing to me.

Are they only built to order or do you have stock? I'm wondering if I should request a visit and bring my Helix down.

I haven't but a few customers have. We need to get hold of a good modeller and let the guitarists here loose with it! The only difference between a loudspeaker for a guitar modeller and a bass modeller is that the bass one needs to be able to go lower and move more air to generate greater quantities of bass - so if it can model bass (which the FR800 can) then there's no reason it can't model guitar, it's just in a bigger box than need be for a dedicated guitar modelling cab.

We have some demo FR800s you can try/borrow if you visit! Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[fretmeister]

I haven't but a few customers have. We need to get hold of a good modeller and let the guitarists here loose with it! The only difference between a loudspeaker for a guitar modeller and a bass modeller is that the bass one needs to be able to go lower and move more air to generate greater quantities of bass - so if it can model bass (which the FR800 can) then there's no reason it can't model guitar, it's just in a bigger box than need be for a dedicated guitar modelling cab.

We have some demo FR800s you can try/borrow if you visit!

Lovely, and thank you.

I'll have to see about getting a day off for a visit and bring my Helix down. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

We have some demo FR800s you can try/borrow if you visit!

Sounds like a good offer to me. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[stevie]

The RCF stuff looks intriguing, although ugly as sin. I preumse the plastic is sturdy? The response of the 745 goes to 45hz at -3db, the same 'number' as my MB NY121s, although MB don't state whether that's -3 or-10db. I do notice with a fiver that the lower range rolls off, and while the usefulness of that real bottom end is debatable, it would be nice to have the choice, even if I do reign it in 90% of the time. The 30hz of the Big Twin is appealing on that front, although I realise I'm listening with my eyes to a degree there.

This is quite revealing about how some bass cab sellers operate. Unless you are used to drawing up this kind of specification, you really cannot make any sensible judgment from the data they supply. This is because most bass cab makers - although not all it must be said - stretch the truth about their products as far as they possibly can. Or at least present it in a way that is very misleading.

So you think that the Barefaced cab goes lowest because the blurb talks about 30Hz? Think again. I couldn't be bothered checking, but I'm sure there is some marketing nonsense alongside that figure of 30Hz. On the whole, the data supplied by the PA industry is honest and useful. So when RCF say that their cab is -3dB down at 48Hz, you can be fairly sure it this is accurate. I installed a Kappalite 3012LF in the Basschat DIY cab the other day and measured -3dB at 48Hz. Now I can tell you from experience that -3dB at 48Hz gives you a nice fat bass tone. As the RCF goes marginally lower, you will not lack for lows. And I'm talking about serious low-end punch here.

I'd guess that the Markbass figure is -10dB, but I don't know the cab so I can't say for sure. The Barefaced is unlikely to be anywhere near the RCF, but I don't think that a fat low end is one of its design goals anyway. The 30Hz is fluff.

Just don't be misled by bass cab specifications, that's all. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[stevie]

As I keep repeating, treating all drivers of a given nominal diameter of having identical dispersion due to an assumption of 100% pistonic behaviour is deeply misleading.

We seem to have a bit of Proof by Assertion going on here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion), closely related to argumentum ad neuseum. Go on, look it up in Wikipedia, it's worth a quick read (then think: "strong and stable leadership"). But I digress. Yes, the radiating area of a loudspeaker shrinks with increasing frequency and most cones lose their rigidity at 1kHz or so. That's the normal behaviour of a loudspeaker. They all do that. Do we have any data, figures, measurements or other - I hate to say the word again - evidence that the Barefaced driver has better off-axis dispersion than other 12" drivers. Repeating a claim does not prove it.

I would leave you with this quote from Harry F. Olsen. (Look him up. He invented the isobaric arrangement used by Orange, the passive radiator used in the Mesa Boogie Walkabout, as well as the synthesizer (using valves!), videotape, the ribbon microphone and lots of other surprising things. He also developed the theoretical basis for the line array – 50 years ago. Amazing chap. He also wrote the first authoritative work on acoustics, which is still studied by students of the subject today).

Anyway, Harry F. said: "The fact is that for most of the range of any loudspeaker, its geometry has little effect on dispersion or directivity, its projected area or perimeter being the major factor." Interesting, eh? Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

Remember, 410s are flawed. 410s are flawed. 410s are flawed. 410s are flawed.

May I introduce to you, my new 410.

[stevie]

That did seem a bit of a flip-flop from "we refuse to make cabs that squirt at the ceiling" to "our cabs are great at squirting at the ceiling".

[markstuk]

Remember, 410s are flawed. 410s are flawed. 410s are flawed. 410s are flawed.

May I introduce to you, my new 410.

To be fair they were never presented as fr/fr cabs, just better and certainly lighter versions of the n x 10 form factor..
  Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

To be fair they were never presented as fr/fr cabs, just better and certainly lighter versions of the n x 10 form factor..

I didn't say they were presented as fr/fr cabs.

Lighter than a lot of the competition maybe... but better... based on what evidence? Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Dood]

EDIT: Actually, you know what, I don't really care. I've deleted my post.

Edited May 5, 2017 by dood

[markstuk]

I didn't say they were presented as fr/fr cabs.

Lighter than a lot of the competition maybe... but better... based on what evidence?

I said "presented".. people who have them seem to like them.. I have both bf and berg cabs and like them both.. In the end I'm not an audio engineer (although I do have a physics degree) actually building cabs or have access to testing rooms to accurately measure off axis response. What I do know is that mathematicaly modelling complex behaviours is tricky.. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

It was a 410 with the "flaws" taken out?

I really like to know about the technical side of stuff, but man, it's like watching psychologists argue here some times. I mean Stevie, you do come across as having an axe to grind every time Barefaced comes up. You're definitely out to discredit rather than investigate, explore or discuss. I know what your answer will be too.

I'm sure I've said this before... maybe it's the flaws in the cab that actually appeals to people. The 8x10, from a physics point of view, is one of the most flawed cabs out there... but it's also one of the most loved cabs. Sometimes, the flaws are the appeal.

I don't think anybody is bashing, trying to discredit or necessarily having an axe to grind, - I think it's just that there are people out there who are genuinely interested in looking past the marketing hype and technobabble to find out more about the meat and bones of a cab design. There have been some very interesting view points put forward in this thread alone... and I think Stevie is actually making some valid points in response to Alex's.

Alex certainly hasn't done anything ground breaking in terms of cab design... and if the addition of a hpf one side of a 4x10 is taking the flaws out and making it such a better cab, without fail, for the cost of implementing those hpf, EVERY 4x10 manufacturer would be doing it. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

I said "presented".. people who have them seem to like them.. I have both bf and berg cabs and like them both.. In the end I'm not an audio engineer (although I do have a physics degree) actually building cabs or have access to testing rooms to accurately measure off axis response. What I do know is that mathematicaly modelling complex behaviours is tricky..

At no point did I infer that the 410 was FR/FR. It was you that brought that term into play with reference to the 410.

It's great that people like them - as it would be pretty poor if people were buying cabs that they didn't like. I would be interested to hear from people who have owned and gig a whole load of 410s and be able to give a real world view on the BF 410 to see if the marketing hype actually translates into real world performance.

I get the lightweight thing - I absolutely do - but sometimes I think that the actual performance of the cabs may be overhyped due to the owner being so pleased about the weight of the cab.

Like I've said before, if Alex's 18" sub actually performs as well as the competition, then he is onto a winner... but a lightweight sub is pretty much high up on any sound guys wish list. If it was achievable with absolutely zero impact on the sound performance, I'm sure that every manufacturer in the land would be doing it. Call me cynical - but Alex surely can't be the first person to make a killer lightweight 18 sub to perform as an equal against the other products in the market?

Marketing in action - 130dB - similar to typical 2x18" DJ subs

A pair of 2x18s should be approaching, if not exceeding, 140dB.

EDIT : I would actually buy a pair of Alex's 18s if they out gunned my current subs. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Dood]

I'm sure I've said this before... {snip}

I decided to retract my post a couple of minutes after. Think I'll step away from BC for a bit. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[markstuk]

At no point did I infer that the 410 was FR/FR. It was you that brought that term into play with reference to the 410.

It's great that people like them - as it would be pretty poor if people were buying cabs that they didn't like. I would be interested to here from people who have owned and gig a whole load of 410s and be able to give a real world view on the BF 410 to see if the marketing hype actually translates into real world performance.

I get the lightweight thing - I absolutely do - but sometimes I think that the actual performance of the cabs may be overhyped due to the owner being so pleased about the weight of the cab.

Like I've said before, if Alex's 18" sub actually performs as well as the competition, then he is onto a winner... but a lightweight sub is pretty much high up on any sound guys wish list. If it was achievable with absolutely zero impact on the sound performance, I'm sure that every manufacturer in the land would be doing it. Call me cynical - but Alex surely can't be the first person to make a killer lightweight 18 sub to perform as an equal against the other products in the market?

EDIT : I would actually buy a pair of Alex's 18s if they out gunned my current subs.

Actually you brought the 410's into a conversation about fr/fr cabs so it seemed sensible to point out they came from a different design perspective. Personally I replaced 2xEBS proline 410's with a S12T and spent some months ab'ing them in rehearsal and live. Not only did I prefer the sound but my bandmates did as well. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

Actually you brought the 410's into a conversation about fr/fr cabs so it seemed sensible to point out they came from a different design perspective. Personally I replaced 2xEBS proline 410's with a S12T and spent some months ab'ing them in rehearsal and live. Not only did I prefer the sound but my bandmates did as well.

I spoke about the 410s with regard to the marketing approach that BF use - reread the post exactly above it for some context.

I couldn't care less about EBS cabs, I use JH Audio Roxannes.

Incidentally, if you want to bring EBS cabs into play, I don't approve of the cheapening of their products that they have done. Chinese knock off corners, thinning of the carpet covering... the same Gamma/Delta speakers that everybody else uses. The appeal of their cabs to me, is actually the Selenium HF horn... which isn't that expensive either but like most cabs doesn't really justify the prices of their cabs either. I'd much rather run with a decent PA in front of me - it would certainly leave the EBS cabs for dust. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[markstuk]

I spoke about the 410s with regard to the marketing approach that BF use - reread the post exactly above it for some context.

I couldn't care less about EBS cabs, I use JH Audio Roxannes.

Incidentally, if you want to bring EBS cabs into play, I don't approve of the cheapening of their products that they have done. Chinese knock off corners, thinning of the carpet covering... the same Gamma/Delta speakers that everybody else uses. The appeal of their cabs to me, is actually the Selenium HF horn... which isn't that expensive either but like most cabs doesn't really justify the prices of their cabs either. I'd much rather run with a decent PA in front of me - it would certainly leave the EBS cabs for dust.

Like dood I don't quite understand what drives you this way. All high end cab makers claim some form of secret sauce, but in the end it's a system not a bunch of components. And all that really matters is that it appears to work as well as anything else.. I'm out . Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

Like dood I don't quite understand what drives you this way. All high end cab makers claim some form of secret sauce, but in the end it's a system not a bunch of components. And all that really matters is that it appears to work as well as anything else.. I'm out .

Drives me which way? You made a veiled attack on me, I responded with an honest response.

And while we are talking about not understanding stuff, I don't understand how marketing claims defy certain givens. Each to their own. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[markstuk]

"veiled attack"? 😀 Take a chill pill and calm down.. It was certainly not my intention to attack anyone..

And it's clear you don't understand marketing. That's why we have critical faculties..

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

"veiled attack"? Take a chill pill and calm down.. It was certainly not my intention to attack anyone..

Proper chill here.

I thought you were out.

We really should be getting back to talking about the cabs btw. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

And it's clear you don't understand marketing. That's why we have critical faculties..

Just seen your edit.

Oh.. I absolutely do... The inclusion of HPF in the 410 is a marketing ploy to potentially place the BF410 above the competition. Sharp, ain't I? Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[molan]

Well the physics is quite simple. With most bass cabs, you lose the midrange and higher frequencies when you are standing at an angle off to the side or above your cab. Without those frequencies, note definition disappears. Just like turning the treble control right down makes it difficult to understand speech.

When you're standing close to and above your cab, you need a design that will direct those mid and high frequencies up to your ears as well as into the audience. Most bass cabs don't do that. Even the ones that have tweeters use bullets that send the sound straight forward past your knees. There may be more, but the only cabs I know that try to deal with this problem are the Greenboy 3-ways and the Audiokinesis cabs, which are fitted with a 90 x 90 horn, i.e. a vertical dispersion of 90 degrees designed specifically to reach your ears when you are in front of the cab. There may be others that I'm not familiar with - and you can always tilt your cab.

I thought that the Barefaced, at least the 1 x 12", would be quite good from this point of view, as I think it has a horn with a vertical dispersion angle of 70 degrees, but it seems you have to place it behind the drummer to hear it. Oh well. I would also mention the Basschat DIY cab II, which was designed with this particular problem in mind and which sounds quite clear even when you are directly in front of it.

Edit - I'd say that cabs with a separate 5 or 6-inch midrange driver also direct the sound towards your ears quite well, at least in theory, because they double the frequency at which the cab starts to beam.

As it happens some of my favourite ever cabs over the years have had a three driver arrangement with either 10", 8" or 6" mid drivers (the cabs with the 10" & 8" were both paired with 15" bass drivers whereas the 6" was with a 12").

If the most recent if these, the 12" with the 6" mid, actually fitted in the boot of my car then it would be sitting next to me right now

My cab of choice these days is a lightweight, well built, 2x10" in a diagonal vertical design. It brings the upper 10" to a nice height which I'm sure helps my on-stage monitoring.

I should add that I'm always in the FoH to a degree so don't need to be blasting volume out on stage.

I'd love to try the new Alain Caron MarkBass combo which adds a 5" mid driver to the 12" main one but it's a bit heavier than my original AC combo - enough to put me off for now.
  Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353