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Jus Lukin

By Jus Lukin,
in Amps and Cabs

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molan Veteran

molan

Posted
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Toys, prams and popcorn everywhere but all I can add is a +1 to the RCF tops, they're brilliant! How can one cab handle everything from lovely female vocals to a nice low B and everything in between?!



RCF make some genuine quality gear, definitely one of the true 'pro' brands out there. I'd recommend them happily to anyone :)

Edit - I should add that I don't have any experience of the plastic moulded cabs, only wooden ones. Edited by Dad3353
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Jack Mentor

Jack

Posted
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Hmmm, I've just seen that the Barefaced prices have gone up to the tune of £300 or so for a pair of FR800s, that's now a little out of my price range and I can't see a reason for the increase in price. Apart from the RCFs (which don't seems to stack so well) what options are there out there for a (pair of) FRFR cab for live bass use?

My current rig is board -> channel strip, power amp, full range 3 way cab. But I'd be keen to move to an all in one solution.


EDIT - Have the prices gone up or is it my imagination? I was sure that they were £1899 for a pair, have I made that up?

Edited by Dad3353
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EBS_freak Grand Master

EBS_freak

Posted
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Hmmm, I've just seen that the Barefaced prices have gone up to the tune of £300 or so for a pair of FR800s, that's now a little out of my price range and I can't see a reason for the increase in price.

EDIT - Have the prices gone up or is it my imagination? I was sure that they were £1899 for a pair, have I made that up?


I remember them being 1999 a pair - gone up to what they are now - 2089. Edited by Dad3353
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Jack Mentor

Jack

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What sort of gigs require a full pa system on stage just for bass monitoring duties?



Speaking for myself, any of my tone control and effects come from my pedal board, the amp (such as it is) is usually just for stage monitoring. When we take our own pa (~80% of gigs) then I know that I don't need any stage volume as there'll be a decent wedge.

What I want is something to provide that on stage volume for other gigs, gigs with no PA support (FOH from stage amp), jams, rehearsals and situations where I don't know what I'm walking into. Currently that means an 18kg, 3-space rack and a massive, 25kg cab. If I can replace that setup with something like a FR800 then I'm all in. Edited by Dad3353
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EBS_freak Grand Master

EBS_freak

Posted
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Speaking for myself, any of my tone control and effects come from my pedal board, the amp (such as it is) is usually just for stage monitoring. When we take our own pa (~80% of gigs) then I know that I don't need any stage volume as there'll be a decent wedge.

What I want is something to provide that on stage volume for other gigs, gigs with no PA support (FOH from stage amp), jams, rehearsals and situations where I don't know what I'm walking into. Currently that means an 18kg, 3-space rack and a massive, 25kg cab. If I can replace that setup with something like a FR800 then I'm all in.



Are you looking to stack two FR800s? If not, the stacking of the RCFs is a bit of a moot point. Edited by Dad3353
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stevie Grand Master

stevie

Posted
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If the most recent if these, the 12" with the 6" mid, actually fitted in the boot of my car then it would be sitting next to me right now :)



For those who haven't tried a cab with a separate midrange driver, not only is their dispersion superior to a single driver cab (so you and your band can hear the bass better), but the quality of the mids is also much improved - cleaner, crisper, less coloured. Worth a try anyway. Edited by Dad3353
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stingrayPete1977 Grand Master

stingrayPete1977

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Speaking for myself, any of my tone control and effects come from my pedal board, the amp (such as it is) is usually just for stage monitoring. When we take our own pa (~80% of gigs) then I know that I don't need any stage volume as there'll be a decent wedge.

What I want is something to provide that on stage volume for other gigs, gigs with no PA support (FOH from stage amp), jams, rehearsals and situations where I don't know what I'm walking into. Currently that means an 18kg, 3-space rack and a massive, 25kg cab. If I can replace that setup with something like a FR800 then I'm all in.



I'd rather use the RCF speakers as the FOH then you know you've got a good front of house, if the front of house isn't much cop then chances are you'll struggle to keep your rig volume low enough as it will be moving at lot of air, I struggle with my Genz 2x12T in those situations no matter how low I try and get the volume. Edited by Dad3353
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Jack Mentor

Jack

Posted
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I'd rather use the RCF speakers as the FOH then you know you've got a good front of house, if the front of house isn't much cop then chances are you'll struggle to keep your rig volume low enough as it will be moving at lot of air, I struggle with my Genz 2x12T in those situations no matter how low I try and get the volume.



That's all when and good but when I've got a say over what the foh setup is then we've got a great PA as a band. The problem is we don't always get a say. The unfortunate reality is that, despite what we would like to ideally do, sometimes we need an amp begins us. Edited by Dad3353
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Jack Mentor

Jack

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It's just a lot of work taking your own PA to a gig just so the bass sounds killer even though the FOH PA sounds crap?



At this point I really can't tell if you're being contrary for the sake of it. I appreciate that it's too much work, it's not ideal. When we play most shows we have a great PA set up, I take my own wedge and I'm happy. But I am after something to replicate this set up on the gigs that I need to provide stage volume for. What you really don't seem to understand is that in these situations the bass is going to sound how the bass is going to sound. You have never played a gig where you don't know the soundman or the system? You've never played a show (or rehearsal, or jam night, or audition with a new band) where the FOH is out of your control?

My point is, maybe the bass is going to sound crap FOH, maybe it's going to sound amazing. Maybe Dave Rat will be behind the desk on Saturday night, who knows? But if I'm told to provide stage volume then I do what I'm told. I can't see it going down very well if I say to a venue about their installed or hired system "Hmmmm, this PA system you have seems a little crap. Besides we're not supposed to provide the FOH volume from on stage any more, against best practice these days. You mind if I dismantle yours and put my own up? It's ok, they're RCF!"

This derail has perhaps gone on too long. If anyone else can recommend a reasonable alternative to the FR800 or RCF 735A then I'd be keen to hear about it. Edited by Dad3353
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stingrayPete1977 Grand Master

stingrayPete1977

Posted
Posted (edited)

I'm not being arsey, I've got a pair of RCF 735s right here, for a typical gig where I don't know the PA situation I could do EXACTLY what you are suggesting but I never have!

Getting a complex full range bass mix including lots of FX to the back of a big room without over powering the PA system and keeping a balanced mix across the room is practically impossible using it as backline tucked up one corner, the bass will travel and the intricate bits will get lost, the voice coils are meant to be at ear height for example, I hate it when you go to a gig and the bass sounds brilliant for the first couple of songs then they click a pedal and it's gone! Flea does it even with a pro sound crew!

Edited by stingrayPete1977
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cetera Grand Master

cetera

Posted
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I know it doesn't exactly address you flat frequency response issue..... but I'd say just try different cabs and see what YOU like for YOUR circumstances.

I've tried 2x10's, 4x10's, 6x10's,1x15's, 2x15's, 1x12's, 2x12's and combinations of them..... and by various different well known manufacturers including BF.

My PERSONAL faves have ended up being the old Mesa/Boogie Diesel 2x15 and the more recent (& more portable) GenzBenz Nx212T. Why? Because they have most accurately produced the sound I like to hear when combined with my basses, amps and pedals of choice.

Ultimately, no amount of engineering/physics talk will change how YOU hear it.

Edited by cetera
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stevie Grand Master

stevie

Posted
Posted (edited)

Back to the subject of dispersion.....

Over the weekend I was lucky enough to become a proud, albeit very temporary, owner of an actual Barefaced. Soooooo.... I thought I’d do some quick and dirty measurements of the 12” XN driver compared to another similar driver to see if the claims for its superior off-axis performance held up.

I’ll try to keep comments to a minimum, as I think the measurements speak for themselves. For the record, they were taken at a distance of 1 metre, in a cabinet 33cm wide with the driver at a height of 1.3 metres from the floor. Measurement software was Liberty Audiosuite. The response is anechoic down to about 300Hz. I took measurements on axis, and at 30 and 45 degrees off axis. As the 45-degree ones don’t really provide any extra information, I’ll keep things simple and not show them.

Here’s the frequency response of the Barefaced driver on axis (top) and at 30 degrees off axis (lower).



Nice smooth response apart from the wide bump just above 2kHz, which deserves further investigation. The upper -6dB point is at 3.5kHz, which means that, without any crossover on the LF, the crossover point must at around 3.5kHz.

Note the off-axis response.

This is the same measurement of a Ciare 12.00 NDW. Unfortunately no longer made, it was a standard production model (i.e. not OEM). It has a 4-inch, 20mm long coil. It’s a bit bumpier than the Eminence, but its on-axis response extends to 4kHz, which is where its main upper resonance is.


Back to the Barefaced. This is the cumulative spectral decay plot of the Barefaced driver, taken to reveal what’s going on between 2 and 3kHz. I suspect not everyone will know how to read this, but it’s here for those who do.

Edited by stevie
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Happy Jack Grand Master

Happy Jack

Posted
Posted (edited)

I've rarely seen a better case argued for using your ears rather than all this reductio ad absurdum.

If you like the sound, buy it.

If you don't like the sound, buy something else.

If you want to score points, endlessly, boringly, repetitively, then analyse the sound to death using oh-so-clever graphs accompanied by casual put-downs ("I suspect not everyone will know how to read this ...").

Perhaps clutching a copy of this graph will somehow make your PA sound better in The Tickled Trout.

I promise you it won't make a blind bit of difference in any pub I've ever played.

I imagine that the RCFs sound great. I know the Barefaced RFs sound great. Lots of things sound great.

Get over it.

Edited by Dad3353
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Conan Mentor

Conan

Posted
Posted (edited)

Over the weekend I was lucky enough to become a proud, albeit very temporary, owner of an actual Barefaced. Soooooo.... I thought I’d do some quick and dirty measurements of the 12” XN driver compared to another similar driver to see if the claims for its superior off-axis performance held up....




Can we call a spade a spade here? Are you accusing Alex/Barefaced of lying? Or at least exaggerating? For those of us without a PhD in acoustics, what do those graphs actually mean in the "real world"? :/

And this morning I was thinking how pleasant it was that a Barefaced thread had just fizzled out without locking, warnings or associated nastiness. :( Edited by Dad3353
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