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[Wooks79]

So I installed the drivers in an identical cabinet in order to carry out measurements that were comparable. In fact, it was the Basschat DIY prototype cab. The measurements were of the 12" drivers connected directly to an amp

I'm one of the people who these graphs go over my head. Very pretty but not, for me, informative.

All I wanted to as... is it not the product as a whole for a manufacturers cab that the numbers/specs are quoted? Not just someone dumping the speaker into a home made cab that was not made for the particular combination?

(For disclosure, I own 2 barefaced cabs, and am very happy with them, and plan to buy another, but I like them for what I hear from them, not for specs or numbers. I'll also add that this forum does seem to have some detractors who like to put down certain brands wherever and however they can. For me it's ashdown, I hate them, but it quickly gets old and pointless reading about it, so I try not to post it )

Quick edit: just to say that I am also reading this thread with interest due to me wanting a FRFR solution if possible to cover bass and guitar from one cab... not just to read the he said/she said. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 24, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Conan]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1493998305' post='3292521']
Remember, 410s are flawed. 410s are flawed. 410s are flawed. 410s are flawed.

May I introduce to you, my new 410.
[/quote]
[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1494002801' post='3292571']Alex certainly hasn't done anything ground breaking in terms of cab design...
[/quote]
[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1494937853' post='3299736']
There's no [i]ad hominem [/i]

I feel sometimes that people on here are far too sensitive over gear at times.
[/quote]

Hmmmm.

[EBS_freak]

Hmmmm.

Err... but they are all valid points.

A 410 was released after BF stated ad nauseam that it was a flawed design and something that they wouldn't be interested in producing.

Please inform me what Alex has done that has been revolutionary in cab design? Presumably he holds the corresponding patents too?

Hmmm.... Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[alexclaber]

I’ll try to keep comments to a minimum, as I think the measurements speak for themselves.

Yes, I think they do! Especially if you level match the curves on this graph as on the other other speaker's graph - line 1 (on-axis) and line 2 (30 deg) should be on top of each other until the dispersion starts to narrow, so line 2 is shown over 3dB quieter than it really is. A more paranoid person might assume you'd done that deliberately to make the Barefaced driver's dispersion appear less good...

For the record, they were taken at a distance of 1 metre, in a cabinet 33cm wide with the driver at a height of 1.3 metres from the floor. Measurement software was Liberty Audiosuite. The response is anechoic down to about 300Hz. I took measurements on axis, and at 30 and 45 degrees off axis. As the 45-degree ones don’t really provide any extra information, I’ll keep things simple and not show them.

Here’s the frequency response of the Barefaced driver on axis (top) and at 30 degrees off axis (lower).



Nice smooth response apart from the wide bump just above 2kHz, which deserves further investigation. The upper -6dB point is at 3.5kHz, which means that, without any crossover on the LF, the crossover point must at around 3.5kHz.

Note the off-axis response.

Your assumption on crossover point is incorrect! I don't design for on-axis response because 99% of the people in a room are not on-axis. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[chris_b]

A 410 was released after BF stated ad nauseam that it was a flawed design and something that they wouldn't be interesting in producing.

Your lack of homework is showing. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

Your lack of homework is showing.

It so isn't. I stand by my comment. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[alexclaber]

There's not a huge difference in off axis output and it clearly varies with frequency...

Anyway I find it interesting

I think the thing I've found most interesting is how even those who know how to read these plots are doing so either with a degree of bias or don't understand the field as well as they think.

As I said in my earlier response, the on and off-axis plots should be coincident at the lowest anechoic frequencies - if they aren't then there's a measurement error or a graphing error. I think it would be reasonable to assume 400Hz is that point based on the information we have.

Once we correct those graphs we see one driver has the same response on and off-axis to about 1.2kHz, whilst the other driver's response diverges from 600Hz upwards, a whole octave lower. We also see that the former driver looks like it achieves near flat power response (this is the sum of all the on and off-axis responses) to about 3Khz.

I'm not quite sure how that amounts to "not a huge difference"? I suspect the ears would tell the truth! Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Count Bassy]

I ordered a pair of fr800s last week.

Now you see, that just shows how deceptive a graph can be.
A cording to that graph you had one FR800 the middle of last week, and one and a half FR800s a day or so after that!
Did they deliver them to the doorstep and then slowly push them through the door over the next week?
Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Conan]

Err... but they are all valid points.

I didn't say that they weren't - simply that the manner in which the points were made seems excessively personal, hence my ad hominem reference.

I stand by my comments. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

I didn't say that they weren't - simply that the manner in which the points were made seems excessively personal, hence my ad hominem reference.

I stand by my comments.

Meh, if people can't deal with a tongue in cheek comment in a forum, then God help them in the real world. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Cuzzie]

I've read all the comments and finished all the popcorn and have to jump in.

I sounded sh*t and sloppy through my 8" combo amp so I thought it was sound related.

Got a Hartke LH1000 and Hydrive 410, still sounded a bit poo, but it's because of those aluminium speakers.

Got a Darkglass amp and a Barefaced Supertwin, now I sound sh*t, but everyone can hear me as well as it's really effing loud.
It's got to the state where I don't even like my own playing...

So to conclude Alex, Larry,Doug - you all sold a man dreams and then shattered them and also his wallet.

Holger is next on the list for making me buy a Sandberg...

[EBS_freak]

I've read all the comments and finished all the popcorn and have to jump in.

I sounded sh*t and sloppy through my 8" combo amp so I thought it was sound related.

Got a Hartke LH1000 and Hydrive 410, still sounded a bit poo, but it's because of those aluminium speakers.

Got a Darkglass amp and a Barefaced Supertwin, now I sound sh*t, but everyone can hear me as well as it's really effing loud.
It's got to the state where I don't even like my own playing...

So to conclude Alex, Larry,Doug - you all sold a man dreams and then shattered them and also his wallet.

Holger is next on the list for making me buy a Sandberg...

But your Barefaced setup is far from FRFR... which is what this thread is meant to be about. Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Cuzzie]

And spend more money to make even more people hear me sound even rubbish.........

I'm in!!!!!!

You can't take it with you

[stevie]

Snark aside, what might we take from those measurements? The on and off axis measurements show that the off-axis response does start to drop off somewhere above 1KHz. A comparison with the Kappalite 3012HO and LF might be interesting, since those were used in the previous Barefaced products and would presumably be what they are attempting to improve on with the new driver.
It's a shame not many driver manufacturers include data on off-axis response - I've noticed that Faital do but I'm not aware of any others.

Quite a few manufacturers publish the off-axis response of their drivers (I can think of 18sound and JBL off the top of my head), but it isn’t really necessary because everyone knows that cones of the same size exhibit more or less the same rolloff characteristics. As a rule of thumb, speaker drivers start beaming at a frequency whose wavelength is equal to the diameter of the cone. For a 12” driver that would be around 1250 Hz. The curves show that this is in fact what is happening. The off-axis curve is the one we’re interested in; the on-axis curve is just for reference.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[stevie]

Yes, I think they do! Especially if you level match the curves on this graph as on the other other speaker's graph - line 1 (on-axis) and line 2 (30 deg) should be on top of each other until the dispersion starts to narrow, so line 2 is shown over 3dB quieter than it really is. A more paranoid person might assume you'd done that deliberately to make the Barefaced driver's dispersion appear less good...

I see you have homed in on a completely irrelevant minor issue. Look at the off-axis responses. Unless you are completely blind, you can see that they are very similar. The main thing is that both drivers roll off at about 1.2kHz exactly as the theory predicts. The Barefaced driver does not have any magical dispersion properties.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Dood]

You know that feeling when you regret rejoining a conversation..

That's cool though, I'm off to play my cabinets this evening rather than talk about them

Oh! And I might have some deep fried potatoes on the way home too!

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Cuzzie]

Oh yes and Dood

I blame you as well, should never have listened to your awesome reviews, next time have me playing, no one will buy anything

[Phil Starr]

I think the thing I've found most interesting is how even those who know how to read these plots are doing so either with a degree of bias or don't understand the field as well as they think.

As I said in my earlier response, the on and off-axis plots should be coincident at the lowest anechoic frequencies - if they aren't then there's a measurement error or a graphing error. I think it would be reasonable to assume 400Hz is that point based on the information we have.

Once we correct those graphs we see one driver has the same response on and off-axis to about 1.2kHz, whilst the other driver's response diverges from 600Hz upwards, a whole octave lower. We also see that the former driver looks like it achieves near flat power response (this is the sum of all the on and off-axis responses) to about 3Khz.

I'm not quite sure how that amounts to "not a huge difference"? I suspect the ears would tell the truth!

Oh Alex that looks a little personal, playing the man not the ball

I'm going to defend what I said. I've put it some of the post you are challenging and copied in the graphs to save people having to scroll back a page. I've highlighted in bold the bits I see as important.

Apart from running my own business custom building speakers back in the 70's I was a science teacher. My thought was that with the ability to read the graphs people could make their own minds up on the evidence, and that was much better than simple assertions. I tried to keep it simple and not get bogged down in more detail than people would find interesting. I thought of mentioning the roughly 2dB discrepancy between the two plots for the Barefaced driver and the roughly 2dB hump around 800Hz in the off axis Ciare plot but my post was already too long so I tried to cover it with "pretty much the same on and off axis until you reach around 1,000Hz". I assumed you'd be back to point out the 2dB difference in level. I just wanted people to have the confidence to look and judge for themselves. Allowing for the 2dB difference your speaker is down 11dB off axis at 2000Hz and so is the Ciare. Above 4,000Hz the Ciare has much more absolute output than your driver (not an issue with a horn of course) I fully accept what you say about the power response at 3K so the difference depends upon your sample frequency. I went on to point out that comparison with a single driver wasn't a fair test. I've carefully avoided any comments over the years about Barefaced products, the only one I've played was a BB2 and I quite liked it. I was simply trying to help people interpret the graphs. Which we can pretty much all read, even me.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[stevie]

Phil, I appreciate the Ciare measurement is a bit difficult to read because both curves intersect, but the whole point of these measurements is to demonstrate that drivers start to beam at a predictable frequency. The graphs show that the Barefaced driver rolls off exactly as you would expect it to do, despite the claims by the manufacturer that they have somehow controlled the dispersion by using a secret sauce that raises the rollof frequency.

If anyone wonders why I am pursuing this, it's because I don't think a commercial company should be able to come onto this forum and make outrageous claims for their products, particularly when they refuse to prove those claims when asked to do so. I also have a low tolerance for snake oil and cow poop.

Just a reminder of the claim, which went like this (and was repeated several times in various guises).

That makes no sense, Alex. Beaming is not complex. It depends on the diameter of the diaphragm.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Beer of the Bass]

I'm curious here; I've seen claims from people other than Alex that the right cone design can improve off-axis response beyond what a simple model based on diameter would predict, though I also see some disagreement with this. My question is, what would this look like when measured? Are we talking about raising the frequency where it starts to roll off, making the roll-off less steep or just increasing sensitivity in that range both on and off axis?

[Conan]

I'm curious here; I've seen claims from people other than Alex that the right cone design can improve off-axis response beyond what a simple model based on diameter would predict, though I also see some disagreement with this. My question is, what would this look like when measured? Are we talking about raising the frequency where it starts to roll off, making the roll-off less steep or just increasing sensitivity in that range both on and off axis?

Agreed. The bickering over claims and counter-claims is all very well, but as far as most users are concerned, how does this affect us in a "real world" playing situation? Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[Cuzzie]

Agreed

One mans Zion or Nirvana is another mans hell.

I accept all the comments here from both parties, and whether or not there is a magic sauce is sort of irrelevant.

Does it sound good to you and the listener?

If it does it's a great product.

If it does not, no manner of 'marketing spiel' as it's been called true, false or otherwise will hide this fact and a product will get found out and ultimately crash and burn

[stingrayPete1977]

I don't understand the charts really but I can read so comparing a BF 12" against any other 12" is neither here nor their when we should be comparing it against two from another manufacturer!


Alex's words,
"In short:
If you want to compare like for like performance, compare one of our 12"s with TWO of anyone else's 12"s"

So let's see these charts please

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

I don't understand the charts really but I can read so comparing a BF 12" against any other 12" is neither here nor their when we should be comparing it against two from another manufacturer!


Alex's words,
"In short:
If you want to compare like for like performance, compare one of our 12"s with TWO of anyone else's 12"s"

So let's see these charts please

Thats an interesting point - especially when I see the new 18 subwoofer. What 2x18 in particular was the benchmark for that statement? Edited October 10, 2019 by Dad3353