New DHA pedal - help please

[Sibob]

[quote name='drake' timestamp='1496305271' post='3310292']
Or a 200w all tube head??!!
[/quote]

A 200w tube head would be the size of a standard big 'ol tube amp, it's the power tubes that restrict the size capabilities. Why do you think people went solid state?
As it is a 150w tube amp is massive and heavy, adding another 50w in tube terms would make it even bigger and heavier.

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496274332' post='3310196']
Speaking of mini...what chance any manufacturer producing a 200W+ pedal board power amp? Something this sized, but geared to bass players:

[url="http://www.quilterlabs.com/index.php/productpage/microblock-45"]http://www.quilterla...e/microblock-45[/url]

I suspect this would create a storm!
[/quote]

Bear in mind that's a 45watt transistor based 'amp'.....start adding more power (and therefore size) and you're into the territory of micro heads. Save yourself the R&D and the wait and just buy something like this:

[url="http://www.markbass.it/product-detail/nano-mark-300/"]http://www.markbass..../nano-mark-300/[/url]

If it makes you feel better, mount it on your pedalboard

Si

[Al Krow]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1496307981' post='3310333']
Bear in mind that's a 45watt transistor based 'amp'.....start adding more power (and therefore size) and you're into the territory of micro heads.
Si
[/quote]

Completely agree with your points on not being able to have tiny valve amps, Si, but in terms of solid state the Quilter 45 is already [i]significantly smaller[/i] than a standard "Boss" sized pedal. The Nano Mark would take up way too much real estate on an average pedalboard, whereas the Q45 could be scaled up to a DHA VT1 pedal size or, better still, smaller with further reductions in scale over the next couple of years so that we end up with something the size of the Q45 but which has become the "Q200" and delivers 200W+. It would then IMHO be a killer product.

Btw - Quilter have already started down that track with their Bass Block 800 (which I would probably get ahead of the nanomark), but most of us don't want / need that much power on a pedal board amp, so I suspect the Quilter 400W and 250W will be products to follow and smaller than the already petite 800. Given the $:£ rate, US products are a fortune at the moment - be great if a UK manufacturer got in on the act! Go for it DHA!

Edited June 1, 2017 by Al Krow

[Rumple]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496274332' post='3310196']
Speaking of mini...what chance any manufacturer producing a 200W+ pedal board power amp? Something this sized, but geared to bass players:

[url="http://www.quilterlabs.com/index.php/productpage/microblock-45"]http://www.quilterla...e/microblock-45[/url]

I suspect this would create a storm!
[/quote]
[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496274332' post='3310196']
Speaking of mini...what chance any manufacturer producing a 200W+ pedal board power amp? Something this sized, but geared to bass players:

[url="http://www.quilterlabs.com/index.php/productpage/microblock-45"]http://www.quilterla...e/microblock-45[/url]

I suspect this would create a storm!
[/quote]

Great idea if it's possible.

[drake]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1496307981' post='3310333']
A 200w tube head would be the size of a standard big 'ol tube amp, it's the power tubes that restrict the size capabilities. Why do you think people went solid state?
As it is a 150w tube amp is massive and heavy, adding another 50w in tube terms would make it even bigger and heavier.
[/quote]

Thats what I was suggesting (albeit in response to a micro amp comment). Without igniting a valve vs solid state debate, given the quality and tone of DHA pre amps, I for one would go for a good all valve head from him.

[Al Krow]

Cuzzie has reminded me of the Trace Elliot Elf which is a tiny 600cc and delivers 200W at 4ohms.

[url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/trace_elliot_elf_basshead.htm?glp=1&gclid=Cj0KEQjw9r7JBRCj37PlltTskaMBEiQAKTzTfGb0T7lGknHCjpYf1jh5ZOGU0k6DIQVSYKFNIimOFIsaAg7K8P8HAQ"]https://www.thomann....OFIsaAg7K8P8HAQ[/url]

So we may already be closer to this nirvana tiny power amp pedal than we think! Be interesting to see if anyone has played one in terms of sound quality etc? But it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man, with ever improving power to size ratio of chip-sets to shrink this bit further to deliver something truly pedal board friendly (and also looks great), right? 18 months tops before these things start becoming widely available is my guess.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Al Krow

[Sibob]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496319241' post='3310452']
Cuzzie has reminded me of the Trace Elliot Elf which is a tiny 600cc and delivers 200W at 4ohms.

[url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/trace_elliot_elf_basshead.htm?glp=1&gclid=Cj0KEQjw9r7JBRCj37PlltTskaMBEiQAKTzTfGb0T7lGknHCjpYf1jh5ZOGU0k6DIQVSYKFNIimOFIsaAg7K8P8HAQ"]https://www.thomann....OFIsaAg7K8P8HAQ[/url]

So we may already be closer to this nirvana tiny power amp pedal than we think! Be interesting to see if anyone has played one in terms of sound quality etc? But it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man, with ever improving power to size ratio of chip-sets to shrink this bit further to deliver something truly pedal board friendly (and also looks great), right? 18 months tops before these things start becoming widely available is my guess.
[/quote]

Yeah the Elf is the closest thing to what you want I think at the moment, although there is another thread where a member is having some real issues getting their pre-ordered Elf. It was announced at NAMM (Jan 2017), preorders taken just after that, and now availability is being touted as end of July, having been pushed back on each subsequent date set. By all accounts it sounds fine, just depends whether they actually manage to get it out or not lol.

I'm not sure I'd say the Q45 is "significantly smaller" than a Boss pedal, the Q45 looks to be a 1590B size (MXR) which is a few MM smaller than a Boss pedal. Anyway, I'm picking hairs .
I guess one day we will get super mega small amps for not much money......but it will always be the same.....someone will talk about 'valve amp heft'

Anyway, this is off topic, continue about DHA.
I imagine that if you're looking for a more commercial path (dealers etc), then tidying up the artwork (I was a fan but others may see it as too 'homemade') and focussing each pedal is a great start. Obviously each original DHA pedal had a lot of functionality and a lot of options. Strip those ideas back to say 3 or 4 pedals that all have specific functions, 3 or 4 controls perhaps. A drive pedal, a DI pedal with EQ & drive, a headphone amp etc etc (just as examples). Keeps it easy to digest.
Then if someone wants something extra, a control added here, a switch added there, original splatter artwork....you can offer that as a 'custom shop' option just through you. It's a model a lot of builders employ.

Just my 2 pence
Si

Cheers
Si

[DHA]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1496324403' post='3310514']
Yeah the Elf is the closest thing to what you want I think at the moment, although there is another thread where a member is having some real issues getting their pre-ordered Elf. It was announced at NAMM (Jan 2017), preorders taken just after that, and now availability is being touted as end of July, having been pushed back on each subsequent date set. By all accounts it sounds fine, just depends whether they actually manage to get it out or not lol.

I'm not sure I'd say the Q45 is "significantly smaller" than a Boss pedal, the Q45 looks to be a 1590B size (MXR) which is a few MM smaller than a Boss pedal. Anyway, I'm picking hairs .
I guess one day we will get super mega small amps for not much money......but it will always be the same.....someone will talk about 'valve amp heft'

Anyway, this is off topic, continue about DHA.
I imagine that if you're looking for a more commercial path (dealers etc), then tidying up the artwork (I was a fan but others may see it as too 'homemade') and focussing each pedal is a great start. Obviously each original DHA pedal had a lot of functionality and a lot of options. Strip those ideas back to say 3 or 4 pedals that all have specific functions, 3 or 4 controls perhaps. A drive pedal, a DI pedal with EQ & drive, a headphone amp etc etc (just as examples). Keeps it easy to digest.
Then if someone wants something extra, a control added here, a switch added there, original splatter artwork....you can offer that as a 'custom shop' option just through you. It's a model a lot of builders employ.

Just my 2 pence
Si

Cheers
Si
[/quote]

Thanks Si

working on 2 models at the moment that will have silk screen - one will be my the best selling VT1-EQ-DI-Bass MK2 and the other a version of the VT1-Std-Bass but with the valve inside and switches on the top. Making one at the moment so will put pics up later.

I agree if people want custom features then I can add them

[paul_5]

Regarding the artwork I'd have to agree that most sound engineers refused to take the DI out of my DHA because they were afraid of what it would do to their speaker.

On the other hand I turned up at a festival with it on my board and the engineer took one look at it and said "Oh, a Dave Hall, I'll take my feed from that!"

Swings and roundabouts.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496325068' post='3310535']
Thanks Si

working on 2 models at the moment that will have silk screen - one will be my the best selling VT1-EQ-DI-Bass MK2 and the other a version of the VT1-Std-Bass but with the valve inside and switches on the top. Making one at the moment so will put pics up later.

I agree if people want custom features then I can add them
[/quote]

So Dave - the mini power amp pedal is a definite non starter then? If it's a case of funding by pre-orders I'm sure you would have 100+ from BCs alone or we could maybe do a BC crowdfund for your much loved Devon based crew

Edited June 1, 2017 by Al Krow

[DHA]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1496331936' post='3310626']
Regarding the artwork I'd have to agree that most sound engineers refused to take the DI out of my DHA because they were afraid of what it would do to their speaker.

On the other hand I turned up at a festival with it on my board and the engineer took one look at it and said "Oh, a Dave Hall, I'll take my feed from that!"

Swings and roundabouts.
[/quote]

just a space model of the new VT1-Std-Bass Mk2, will be silk screened. Controls are I/P level, Gain, Level and Colour - Bright and Colour switch. The jacks and power connector are at the top of the pedal.

120x145x60mm

[attachment=246442:IMG_1706.jpg]

[attachment=246440:IMG_1704.jpg]

[attachment=246441:IMG_1705.jpg]

[DHA]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496334322' post='3310662']
So Dave - the mini power amp pedal is a definite non starter then? If it's a case of funding by pre-orders I'm sure you would have 100+ from BCs alone or we could maybe do a BC crowdfund for your much loved Devon based crew
[/quote]

Making a high power "mini" amp is not a problem, making its power supply and keeping it cool is. Watts out can only come from watts in so the power supply would have to be separate and pretty large. As power amps are not 100% efficient (nothing is) then there will be heat generated so the heat sink required would most likely be 3-4 times larger than the amp.

I think if it were possible then someone would have done it already

Edited June 1, 2017 by DHA

[Al Krow]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496335256' post='3310676']
Making a high power "mini" amp is not a problem, making its power supply and keeping it cool is. Watts out can only come from watts in so the power supply would have to be separate and pretty large. As power amps are not 100% efficient (nothing is) then there will be heat generated so the heat sink required would most likely be 3-4 times larger than the amp.

I think if it were possible then someone would have done it already
[/quote]

Yup - completely fair point. But would it not be possible to have an off-board power supply with heat sink built into that? In the same way that mobile phones don't have large built in chargers and my HP desktop has its power supply transformer external to its consequently more elegant body? It's a trade off that most consumers seem to be willing to accept.

My counter is that Trace Elliot have already done it with their Elf in a package that is no larger than a large pedal (just 600 cm3). I kinda feel you could make something a lot more desirable. Anyway I know I'm just a happy amateur and appreciate that I am way out of my depth here!

Edited June 1, 2017 by Al Krow

[Rumple]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496334700' post='3310666']
just a space model of the new VT1-Std-Bass Mk2, will be silk screened. Controls are I/P level, Gain, Level and Colour - Bright and Colour switch. The jacks and power connector are at the top of the pedal.

120x145x60mm

[attachment=246442:IMG_1706.jpg]

[attachment=246440:IMG_1704.jpg]

[attachment=246441:IMG_1705.jpg]
[/quote]

Looks great are you doing a similar mocked up layout with the VT1 DI EQ?

[DHA]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496336461' post='3310689']
Yup - completely fair point. But would it not be possible to have an off-board power supply with heat sink built into that? In the same way that mobile phones don't have large built in chargers and my HP desktop has its power supply transformer external to its consequently more elegant body? It's a trade off that most consumers seem to be willing to accept.

My counter is that Trace Elliot have already done it with their Elf in a package that is no larger than a large pedal (just 600 cm3). I kinda feel you could make something a lot more desirable. Anyway I know I'm just a happy amateur and appreciate that I am way out of my depth here!
[/quote]

The heat sink is for the power amp not the power supply.

I think the Elf must be a switchmode or digital power amp design, my experience with them is that they are not very loud compared to the standard designs of the same wattage. Might be wrong but the laws of physics are very hard to change.

[DHA]

[quote name='Rumple' timestamp='1496337968' post='3310706']
Looks great are you doing a similar mocked up layout with the VT1 DI EQ?
[/quote]

I will be doing a silk screen version of the VT1-EQ-DI-Mk2 but with the current PCBs it will be impossible to get the switches on the top and the valve inside without using a larger box.

I can add a Di to the VT1-Std

[Al Krow]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496338383' post='3310710']
Might be wrong but the laws of physics are very hard to change.
[/quote]

Haha very true! It's just sometimes the accepted norm isn't always the correct one...Aristotle, Newton, Einstein...Next?

Final punt on this...the Demeter Minnie 800D churns out 800 Watts in a 1970 cc package. Following the laws of physics shouldn't it be possible to produce a 200W amp in something correspondingly smaller that would fit easily onto a pedalboard [i]and[/i] be better than the Elf?

Edited June 1, 2017 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

My 2 pence on the paint job - I couldn't care less what it looked like, if it does the job, the dials are easy to read and use I am in.

I agree with no switches on the side, everything has to be up top, even on my beloved Cali76G, the Germanium dial is at the back, unseen, so any changes in the fly are hard to see.

Am currently going through the website and sound bites to see what they are like etc. Although I am just a happy hacker who won't change the world, but likes gear so I will take no offence if my wish list is ignored!!

First impressions for me is I like the range, and local, it's always good

[DHA]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496338886' post='3310717']
Haha very true! It's just sometimes the accepted norm isn't always the correct one...Aristotle, Newton, Einstein...Next?

Final punt on this...the Demeter Minnie 800D churns out 800 Watts in a 1970 cc package. Following the laws of physics shouldn't it be possible to produce a 200W amp in something correspondingly smaller that would fit easily onto a pedalboard [i]and[/i] be better than the Elf?
[/quote]

watts are not a measurement of volume, dBs are. The trick that switchmode amps use is that they do produce 200Ws but they keep switching it off and on so fast that humans can't hear it happening but its the total on time that you hear not the peak wattage while its on. Thats why valve amps sound so load as they produce much larger harmonics as they approach clipping, producing more power (watts) into the load (speakers).

anyway, its looks a great amp and not the sort of thing I would consider designing as not my thing. Its all about personnel taste.

I think you will find that 200W valve amp will sound twice as loud as the Elf.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496339957' post='3310724']
watts are not a measurement of volume, dBs are. The trick that switchmode amps use is that they do produce 200Ws but they keep switching it off and on so fast that humans can't hear it happening but its the total on time that you hear not the peak wattage while its on. Thats why valve amps sound so load as they produce much larger harmonics as they approach clipping, producing more power (watts) into the load (speakers).

anyway, its looks a great amp and not the sort of thing I would consider designing as not my thing. Its all about personnel taste.

I think you will find that 200W valve amp will sound twice as loud as the Elf.
[/quote]

Sorry for any confusion - I'm aware that dBs are a measure of sound volume, but I was referring to physical volume i.e. compactness when I spoke of the 1970 cc package. Anyway not to worry, thanks for humouring an ex (long time ago) physicist

[DHA]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496340233' post='3310728']
Sorry for any confusion - I'm aware that dBs are a measure of sound volume, but I was referring to physical volume i.e. compactness when I spoke of the 1970 cc package. Anyway not to worry, thanks for humouring an ex (long time ago) physicist
[/quote]

sorry did not want to offend. Will be interesting to hear the reviews of Elf

[Rumple]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496338573' post='3310714']
I will be doing a silk screen version of the VT1-EQ-DI-Mk2 but with the current PCBs it will be impossible to get the switches on the top and the valve inside without using a larger box.
[/quote]

That's a shame but understandable.

[Cuzzie]

My physics is basic, but the figures they rarely publish are the duration of the wattage and whether it is continuous despite the numerous bursts we should not audibly notice.
My guess is the Elf will not give 200W continuous ad infinitum and tail off and the sound will drop or it will overheat.

The key to these power devices is do you use Tripath, ICE or Hypex power for them, each has their own benefits and sound from more sterile to warm, and then you modulate your pulse width.
If you want continuous sound you have to cool, so if you take the dUg Ultrabass for example and take the top off, most of the inside is space.

It will be really tricky to get a powerful bass amp tiny, but we are getting them light

[Al Krow]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496340786' post='3310735']
sorry did not want to offend. Will be interesting to hear the reviews of Elf
[/quote]

Hey Dave - no offence whatsoever taken - hence the smiley face at the end of my post! I'm a) pretty thick skinned and b ) enjoy banter a lot and c) have < 0.1% of the knowledge and expertise on anything to with pedal design that you do.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Al Krow

[DHA]

[quote name='Rumple' timestamp='1496341531' post='3310740']
That's a shame but understandable.
[/quote]

Might well do one in the future (MK3) but I would have to totally redesign the PCBs and maybe even switch to SMT components (surface mount technology) which would mean I would have to subcontract the manufacture.

[DHA]

I will start another thread about power amps, I have a few ideas

Dave