Tech 21: VT Bass DI / Sansamp BDDI / PDDI and Ampeg SCR DI - your views please?

[Al Krow]

Am looking for a warm tubey tone with the option of adding a bit of grit. Playing through passive pickups.

From what I've found out so far:[list]
[*]These all look like good preamps with DI output, are similarly priced at around £195 and seem to be aimed at the same market niche.
[/list][list]
[*]Seems to me that Ampeg should have bragging rights to that warm Ampeg SVT tone, although Sansamp stole a march by getting there first and Ampeg are playing catch-up?
[/list][list]
[*]The Ampeg has a headphone out but maybe I can use the Sansamp DI out (albeit low mic level) output or just the normal output straight into headphones - would that work?
[/list][list]
[*]The Tech 21 stuff is more compact, so will take up less space on the pedal board, which is a plus.
[/list][list]
[*]The Ampeg has a separate Scrambler drive unit, which seems useful, but seen mixed reviews on how good the OD actually is?
[/list]
If you have one or other (or better still have had both!), please do share your thoughts on what you think of them, or whether you would recommend a different pedal altogether?

Edited May 12, 2017 by Al Krow

[dannybuoy]

I'd say the VT does a good job at emulating a tube amp, but the SCR-DI is more like a clean solid state Ampeg preamp, twinned with a fizzy sounding overdrive. The headphone amp with aux in is a major plus though. You can't plug headphones into the DI output of the VT, but you can send the DI to a cheap Behringer MA400 headphone amp as I used to!

[Osiris]

I briefly owned a Sansamp VT bass pedal, the non DI version, but they appear to be the same drive circuit and controls.

At both in house and gig volumes I was able to coax some stunning Ampeg-a-like tones from it and I thought I'd finally nailed the sound that I'd been after for God knows how long. But.....
Once the rest of the band kicked in, the bass just wouldn't cut through. The Sansamp bass driver has a reputation for not cutting through due to its inherent scooped sound, but from what I'd read online about the VT, it wasn't supposed to suffer from this. But no matter what I did with it or however much I cranked the mids or the amp up, it just wouldn't work with the rest of the band - we play a mixture of pop, soft rock and indie numbers so it's not as though I was up against a wall of Marshall's. There was a lot of additional compression in there too which flattened a lot of my playing dynamics.

Having said that, I've not really seen anyone mentioning these issues with the VT so maybe it just didn't play well with the rest of my gear?

Sorry, I've got no experience of the SCR DI so can't comment.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Osiris

[Mudpup]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1494331583' post='3295010']
I'd say the VT does a good job at emulating a tube amp, but the SCR-DI is more like a clean solid state Ampeg preamp, twinned with a fizzy sounding overdrive. The headphone amp with aux in is a major plus though. You can't plug headphones into the DI output of the VT, but you can send the DI to a cheap Behringer MA400 headphone amp as I used to!
[/quote]

You can plug headphones into the jack output and engage the +10db button - its a perfectly useable headphone out but you don't get the aux in functionality.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Mudpup

[andytoad]

I have just bought the Ampeg and am very happy with it. I initially had a clipping issue with it until i discovered the internal pad (my bass is active). It really kicks out a good tone, I have also found the scrambler to add just that bit of OD that I wanted.

I have had a sans amp in the past and feel the Ampeg is better.

Just my opinion though!

[Al Krow]

Interesting comment on the Ampeg SCR DI from another thread...fortunately I'm playing passive basses, however it does concern me that this same issue would arise if the pedal was used with any other pedals which act to boost / modify the signal?

[quote name='petetexas' timestamp='1493624780' post='3289422']
[font=Tahoma]If you are thinking of buying this pedal , try it out first if your Bass is active . I bought one and found ( like quite a few others – search Talk bass forum for eg ) that [b]some[/b] Active Basses overdrive the input . My 1999 Warwick Corvette FNA – MEC pup and Seymour Duncan 3 band EQ – did .[/font]

[font=Tahoma]Using the –15 db pad in the box , did not ( IMHO ) make it sound like an Ampeg anymore, and rolling the volume back on the Bass just made it “mushy”. I even bought a EHX Signal Pad to put in front , to tame the Warwick output signal , but “mushy“ again .[/font]

[font=Tahoma]My Bitsa Jazz – Nordstrand pups , with passive EQ , works Beautifully – true Ampeg tone .[/font]

[font=Tahoma]Pete[/font]
[/quote]

[Lozz196]

I`ve had both, and having also had a few Ampeg amps imo the SCR has a more Ampeg eq/sound to it. With the scrambler set low you can get some great sounds from it, however set too high and again, imo, it`s pretty unusable.

On to the VT - our old producer was Ampeg nuts, and he raved about the sounds I got from it. It is very versatile due to the Character, Bite and Speaker Emulation so many great sound can be drawn from it.

If I had to choose I`d probably pick the VT as found it more versatile an smaller/lighter. If however I wanted a pure undriven warm Ampeg tone then the SCR.

But my current choice is the Sansamp Para Driver - it has sweepable adjustable Mids, so I get the Sansamp BDDI tone but without that Mid-scoop, so I still cut through in the mix.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Lozz196

[Musicman20]

Have you thought about the latest Sansamp BDDI V2 with mids control? There is a shootout in a magazine somewhere (fairly recent)and it notes that this new version allows your mids to really snarl through the mix.

[Al Krow]

@Lozz and Musicman - good shout re. the built in mid scoop which was seems to be the key gripe from bass players about the old BDDI v1 and not being able to cut through the mix in live situations.

Is there then any real difference between the Sansamp PDDI and the BDDI v2?

Seems that the PDDI has slightly greater flexibility on mid control whereas BDDI v2 has an additional "presence" dial which I understand adds some higher end harmonics for a brighter sound?

But in terms of delivering that tubey sound via the blend control it kinda feels like they "nail it"?

Edited May 10, 2017 by Al Krow

[Mudpup]

The presence control usually adds a degree of top end. Sort of a sparkle or string noise boost in real life and can be a bit harsh and aggressive if boosted too much.

Maybe more useful on slappy stuff than warm valvey stuff.

Re the mid scoop - dropping the bass and treble levels a bit, increasing the level and dialling back the blend brings the mids back in. The more blend you have, the more scoop you have in general. The character control on the VT Bass DI also adds mids in as you increase it - again the blend control plays a significant part with it (its a lot more flexible too imho).

If you wanted to pop over and stick some headphones (they'll really show up the sonic differences) on i have a Behringer BDI21 (which is pretty close to the BDDI and has very similar controls) as well as a VT Bass DI and you could get a feel for the sound differences.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Mudpup

[Musicman20]

I might be wrong but I think the PDDI never seemed to please the BDDI purists....maybe this is why they opted for a new updated BDDI with mids control.

I used a BDDI for years and upgraded to the v2 at some point last year. I'd still say Tech 21/Sansamps are the best pedals I've heard for tube warmth and drive, more so the Ampeg flavour.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1494413261' post='3295712']
I used a BDDI for years and upgraded to the v2 at some point last year. I'd still say Tech 21/Sansamps are the best pedals I've heard for tube warmth and drive, more so the Ampeg flavour.
[/quote]

Do you feel that the v2 was a significant improvement over the original?

As Mudpup has noted, it seemed you could deal with the mids issue by dialing back on the treble and bass on the original? This is brought on the attached review of the original BDDI - and I LOVE the tube warmth that clearly comes through on this video. (Actually IMHO it's a great little review - he gets across a lot of helpful info in just 3 mins and leaves me wanting to buy the pedal!)

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c35sBhowaxM"]https://www.youtube....h?v=c35sBhowaxM[/url]

Edited May 10, 2017 by Al Krow

[Cosmo Valdemar]

[quote name='Osiris' timestamp='1494357706' post='3295351']
I briefly owned a Sansamp VT bass pedal, the non DI version, but they appear to be the same drive circuit and controls.

At both in house and gig volumes I was able to coax some stunning Ampeg-a-like tones from it and I thought I'd finally nailed the sound that I'd been after for God knows how long. But.....
Once the rest of the band kicked in, the bass just wouldn't cut through. The Sansamp bass driver has a reputation for not cutting through due to its inherent scooped sound, but from what I'd read online about the VT, it wasn't supposed to suffer from this. But no matter what I did with it or however much I cranked the mids or the amp up, it just wouldn't work with the rest of the band - we play a mixture of pop, soft rock and indie numbers so it's not as though I was up against a wall of Marshall's. There was a lot of additional compression in there too which flattened a lot of my playing dynamics.

Having said that, I've not really seen anyone mentioning these issues with the VT so maybe it just didn't play well with the rest of my gear?

Sorry, I've got no experience of the SCR DI so can't comment.
[/quote]

Were you using the VT bass as a normal pedal between bass and amp or in the effects loop? The Tech 21 Character pedals sound best if you bypass your amp's preamp stage in my experience. Particularly if you use the speaker sim.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1494415515' post='3295733']


Do you feel that the v2 was a significant improvement over the original?

As Mudpup has noted, it seemed you could deal with the mids issue by dialing back on the treble and bass on the original? This is brought on the attached review of the original BDDI - and I LOVE the tube warmth that clearly comes through on this video. (Actually IMHO it's a great little review - he gets across a lot of helpful info in just 3 mins and leaves me wanting to buy the pedal!)

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c35sBhowaxM"]https://www.youtube....h?v=c35sBhowaxM[/url]
[/quote]

Hi - yeah I really like it. I like a lot of control of mids, and often boost them significantly. Don't get me wrong, the original BDDI does not always scoop your mids, if you use the controls noted above, but I really like having the ability to sculpt mids properly.

[Osiris]

[quote name='Cosmo Valdemar' timestamp='1494416627' post='3295745']
Were you using the VT bass as a normal pedal between bass and amp or in the effects loop? The Tech 21 Character pedals sound best if you bypass your amp's preamp stage in my experience. Particularly if you use the speaker sim.
[/quote]

I tried both, as well as the pedal in the loop still using the amp's pre-amp, and got the same results with each different configuration.
It's bloody annoying though as it sounded great and that was the tone I wanted to use, it's just that it wouldn't work with the rest of the band.

But as I said in my previous post [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I've not really seen anyone mentioning these issues with the VT so maybe it just didn't play well with the rest of my gear?[/font][/color]

[Musicman20]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbseSGaD-Hg

[Al Krow]

Hey Osiris - I definitely think we should line each other up as deps for our respective bands Ok you have THREE Sandbergs to my paltry one but we seem to be after exactly the same tone, which you said you achieved by changing your amp to the [b]Genzler Magellan 800 [/b]as set out in your excellent review[b]:[/b]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/303884-amp-test-drive%3B-aguilar-darkglass-genzler-and-mesa-boogie/"]http://basschat.co.u...nd-mesa-boogie/[/url]

I'm hoping I can do the same thing by using the BDDI v2 pedal with my Markbass amp. I was thinking about going down the Darkglass BK7 / Vintage Ultra option as the alternative (given how much love BC's have for these two pedals), but from what you and other folk are saying on this thread the Sansamp route does seem like the best way of getting to that warm tubey sound...

Edited May 10, 2017 by Al Krow

[Musicman20]

I certainly prefer the tube drive circuitry of the Tech 21 pedals. I find most the DG tones to be WAYYYY too much like high gain guitar tones.

[Musicman20]

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/25611-bass-oddipreamp-pedal-roundup?page=2

Edited May 10, 2017 by Musicman20

[Osiris]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1494421318' post='3295820']
Hey Osiris - I definitely think we should line each other up as deps for our respective bands Ok you have THREE Sandbergs to my paltry one but we seem to be after exactly the same tone, which you said you achieved by changing your amp to the [b]Genzler Magellan 800 [/b]as set out in your excellent review[b]:[/b]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/303884-amp-test-drive%3B-aguilar-darkglass-genzler-and-mesa-boogie/"]http://basschat.co.u...nd-mesa-boogie/[/url]

I'm hoping I can do the same thing by using the BDDI v2 pedal with my Markbass amp. I was thinking about going down the Darkglass BK7 / Vintage Ultra option as the alternative (given how much love BC's have for these two pedals), but from what you and other folk are saying on this thread the Sansamp route does seem like the best way of getting to that warm tubey sound...
[/quote]

Yes, it sounds like we're both after the same tone. And I could do with a dep as I don't have anyone to cover any gigs that I can't make - but then again I tend to book my life around gigs so haven't missed one in years! As for depping for you at some point, you never know... Send me a set list and I'll take a look.

Re the Genzler Magellan, I clearly rate the drive channel very highly but in contrast to the Sansamp, the sound is not quite as immediate, for want of a better word. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad sound, far from it, it's warm and rich and smooth, but the Sansamp just has that [i]something[/i] that a lot of guys really like. I suspect is the slightly scooped edge. But for me, the way the Genzler drive works in the mix makes it invaluable, particularly with my experience with the VT pedal (although that was with my old TC RH450 amp). The Genzler sits perfectly in the mix, it cuts through as much as the clean channel, it is clear and punchy and has great dynamic sensitivity too. It just works.

Having owned both a Mark bass little mark 2 amp and the VT pedal, my guess is that they ought to work well together. the VT adding some warmth and character to the amp.
But as with everything, the only way to really tell is to try it yourself and see if it works for you.

My thoughts on the Darkglass sound are detailed in the [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/303884-amp-test-drive%3B-aguilar-darkglass-genzler-and-mesa-boogie/"]Amp test drive[/url] thread. I love the DG sound when I hear it on YouTube clips particularly the new Alpha/Omega, but as Musicman20 says, it's more of a high gain guitar sound rather than the traditional driven bass tone. Not that that's bad in itself but it's not going to work for everyone. I couldn't see it going down to well with the rest of the band, or the crowd, if I started playing [i]Groove is in the heart[/i] with a ragged B3K tone

Edited May 10, 2017 by Osiris

[Al Krow]

Ok just realised I've been a bit of a newbie and have had to slightly amend the post question! (Apologies). I was mashing up two Tech 21 pedals in my head, both of which are pretty similar from what I can tell:

i) Tech 21 "Sansamp Character" VT Bass DI

ii) Tech 21 Sansamp BDDI v2

Quite a lot of positive stuff about the BDDI v2 above (and the BDDI tone does seem to deliver that warm tube from the short YouTube clip above). Any reason in your opinion to favour the VT Bass DI over the BDDI v2?

I know that e.g. Darkglass are doing "similar but different" pedals, but these two Tech 21 pedals do seem to be pretty interchangeable, from what I have understood, but I am probably missing something obvious?

Be great if you can clear up my little confusion on this for me!

Edited May 10, 2017 by Al Krow

[Mudpup]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]"Any reason in your opinion to favour the VT Bass DI over the BDDI v2?"[/font][/color]

[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]The VT Bass DI has the character control (dial anticlockwise from midday and it becomes more SVT like, clockwise adds some fruitier mids in and heads towards Tim Commerford territory). You can also switch the speaker simulator off which makes it sound a bit more full range - with the sim engaged it tightens up the bass response a bit (sealed cab style) which is handy for boomy rooms. You can also switch the bite in or out - it tames the clank if required - its always on with the BDDI i believe and you need to cut the treble to get rid of the clank.[/color][/font]

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]It can do the BDDI thing plus a bunch of other stuff - the BDDI won't do the VT thing quite as well....... [/color][/font][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color]

Edited May 10, 2017 by Mudpup

[Lozz196]

I had the BDDI v2 pedal for not very long, it just didn`t fit well for me. I was expecting the core sound to be like the v1, just with adjustable mids but to me it really didn`t sound like that at all. Nothing wrong with it of course, not everyone can like every pedal. Thats why I`ve chosen the Para Driver as it does exactly what I want, which is the BDDI v1 sound with adjustable mids.

Anyway, back on track, I think Mudpup is spot on, the VT will get very close to the BDDI sound, but the BDDI would be unlikely to get as near to the VT sound.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1494451405' post='3296188']
I had the BDDI v2 pedal for not very long, it just didn`t fit well for me. I was expecting the core sound to be like the v1, just with adjustable mids but to me it really didn`t sound like that at all. Nothing wrong with it of course, not everyone can like every pedal. That's why I`ve chosen the Para Driver as it does exactly what I want, which is the BDDI v1 sound with adjustable mids. Anyway, back on track, I think Mudpup is spot on, the VT will get very close to the BDDI sound, but the BDDI would be unlikely to get as near to the VT sound.
[/quote]

Mudpup and Lozz - thanks, that's very helpful.

Lozz - interesting that you found that the BDDI v2 didn't sound like the BDDI v1. The reason I say that is that the warm tube sound comes out beautifully clear in the short YouTube clip I attached above, but this is for the BDDI v1: [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c35sBhowaxM"]https://www.youtube....h?v=c35sBhowaxM[/url][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [check the clip at 1.30 to 1.45 where he dials the blend in]. [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]However, with the second YouTube clip which Musicman kindly attached (and which I had also previously had a listen to) it's much harder to discern that warm tube sound - it seems to much more quickly get straight into "growl" - this is of the BDDI v2: [/font][/color][url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbseSGaD-Hg"]https://www.youtube....h?v=bbseSGaD-Hg[/url][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color]I appreciate that YouTube clips are no substitute for "real life"(!) However your experience seems to completely explain the difference I am hearing in these two clips, thank you.

Let me see if I can summarise the thread so far regarding the Tech21 pedals:
i) BDDI v1 - much loved warm tubey sound (with possibility of significantly more grit) [size=2](now discontinued)[/size];
ii) Para Driver** = BDDI v1 with adjustable mids [size=2](£229 from GuitarGuitar)[/size];
iii) BDDI v2 - slightly different sound to BDDI v1 but also with adjustable mids [size=2](£234 from GAK)[/size];
iv) VT Bass DI - [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]gets very close to the BDDI sound [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]plus delivers a bunch of other stuff[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif], but the BDDI would be unlikely to get as near to the VT sound [size=2](£194 from Gear4Music)[/size].[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][b]** [/b]Ver 2 of the Para Driver is the current version. According to Tech21 this has exactly the same tonality and functionality [as Para Driver version 1] with the addition of two new features: Rumble Filter and Air. The Rumble Filter removes unwanted sub-sonic frequencies that cause boominess and audible handling noises associated with acoustic guitars.The Air button adds top-end clarity and sparkle to acoustics.[/font][/size][/color]

Edited May 11, 2017 by Al Krow

[Lozz196]

Pretty much spot on there Al. Re the Para Driver, I have both v1 & v2 and if the Rumble and Air Filters are left alone the two are almost identical (the mids go higher on v1, but only to the same freq as the treble). What sold me on it was this youtube clip, at 1:58 where the SVT style setting is demoed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WByH0uiVnI4