Mr Brightside key query...

[solo4652]

Myself and the guitarist are having some problems playing this song. I'm well aware that guitarists often tune down a semi-tone to make the fingering easier. This is what our guitarist does.
This confuses the hell out of me because he says the song is written in the key of D. I play it in C# and it sounds just fine against the original and what the band has played in the past, up until last night's rehearsal, when the guitarist insisted that I played the song in D. This comment from his emails to me today left me very confused:

"The Killers use a well known trick of tuning down half a step. Literally all instruments are tuned down one half step so D sounds like C#. This not what key the song is played in, that doesn't change...only the pitch."

So, if guitarist plays it in D on a guitar that's tuned down one semi-tone, what key is he actually playing the song in?

Edited May 11, 2017 by solo4652

[dannybuoy]

C#.

This is the reason for the subject of debate in this thread!

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/305446-guitarists-referred-to-on-basschat/

[Twigman]

In A 440 - He's playing in C#
In A 415.3 - He's playing in D

haha

Edited May 11, 2017 by Twigman

[dannybuoy]

Reminds me of when my old band thought it would be a good idea to retune from drop-D to drop-C, playing all the songs in the same 'key', but not changing the vocals to match, so everything sounded out of tune!

[Muppet]

The Killers do indeed play this tuned down. Your issues come from you and your guitarist being tuned differently. Fine if you can handle it but in my band we will all tune to the same to avoid confusion.

We play this song in the original key of C# as we have tuned down in the same way as the Killers but, as we are all tuned the same, we do refer to it as being in D due to the positions of the notes on the fretboard.....

[Steve Woodcock]

Mr. Brightside is in the key of Db major (key signature of 5 flats).

A note is named [i]according to its pitch[/i], not its position on a fretboard. I've seen a lot of guitar transcriptions over the years - professionally published ones - that will continue to notate say, a note played at the fifth fret on the A string, as a D regardless of the fact the string is actually detuned to say Ab and so this is wrong, it infuriates me and seems unique to guitar/bass transcriptions usually accompanied by tab.

[jrixn1]

[quote name='Steve Woodcock' timestamp='1494520737' post='3296737']
so this is wrong, it infuriates me and seems unique to guitar/bass transcriptions usually accompanied by tab.
[/quote]

Well... isn't this the same notational error which exists for all transposing instruments?

A trumpeter who thinks they are playing "B" is actually playing an A.

An alto saxophonist who is playing "their D" is actually playing an F.

Etc.

[Muppet]

[quote name='Steve Woodcock' timestamp='1494520737' post='3296737']
Mr. Brightside is in the key of Db major (key signature of 5 flats).

A note is named [i]according to its pitch[/i], not its position on a fretboard. I've seen a lot of guitar transcriptions over the years - professionally published ones - that will continue to notate say, a note played at the fifth fret on the A string, as a D regardless of the fact the string is actually detuned to say Ab and so this is wrong, it infuriates me and seems unique to guitar/bass transcriptions usually accompanied by tab.
[/quote]

You completely miss my point (assuming it is my post you are referring to). In a band context, as long as all instruments have the same understanding of what a note at a particular point on the fretboard is supposed to represent, then you can call it Ethel for all I care, regardless if it's detuned or not. In the case of the OP they are playing the same note, but calling different things because they are in different tunings...

[TKenrick]

[quote name='Steve Woodcock' timestamp='1494520737' post='3296737']
Mr. Brightside is in the key of Db major (key signature of 5 flats).
[/quote]

Thank you for this - the mounting pile of C#s was beginning to make me twitch.

[Steve Woodcock]

[quote name='jrixn1' timestamp='1494531788' post='3296828']
Well... isn't this the same notational error which exists for all transposing instruments?

A trumpeter who thinks they are playing "B" is actually playing an A.

An alto saxophonist who is playing "their D" is actually playing an F.

Etc.
[/quote]

Oranges and apples but OK yes, for instruments such as trumpet and saxophone the written note [i]does[/i] equate to a fingering rather than the sounded note - as you probably know this is so that a player does not have to learn a different set of fingerings for a [i]different sized version[/i] of that same instrument. When discussing these instruments it is important to distinguish between the written note and the sounded note so as to avoid possible confusion, therefore the sounded note is referred to as the 'concert' pitch: i.e. in your example of the alto sax 'written D' is 'concert F'.

Guitars and basses are also transposing instruments but for a different reason to the above: it is simply to avoid the use of many ledger lines as both guitar and bass sound an octave lower than they are written. Unlike brass and woodwind instruments, whose tuning is dictated by the physical attributes of the instrument itself, stringed instruments can accommodate a wide variety of different tunings - enabling a vast catalogue of works to be composed using altered tunings, open tunings, drop tunings etc., if each of these options required a specially transposed score it would be ridiculous; to us string players a D is a D.


[quote name='Muppet' timestamp='1494532939' post='3296841']
You completely miss my point (assuming it is my post you are referring to). In a band context, as long as all instruments have the same understanding of what a note at a particular point on the fretboard is supposed to represent, then you can call it Ethel for all I care, regardless if it's detuned or not. In the case of the OP they are playing the same note, but calling different things because they are in different tunings...
[/quote]

Actually I was answering the OP, I hadn't read your post. The reason note names and other musical terms exist is simply to explain or communicate information to another person, either through written or spoken means. If everyone in your band agrees that you shall all refer to a particular note as Ethel then that serves that purpose, however there will then be a problem if you want to communicate anything about this note to anyone else outside of the members of your band as everyone else will know that note by another name.

[Tonteee]

It seems this has been comprehensively responded to. Well done, chaps. The note Db is Db, be it played on the fourth fret of a string tuned to Ab or the fifth fret of a string tuned to A. I can however understand why the guitarist refers to it as D, because that's the chord shape he's using. But unless everyone is detuned a semitone, that won't wash.

The thing I can't understand however is the guitarist's insistence that you change what you do when it already sounded fine. It's almost as if he begrudges you playing in concert pitch, which I find odd. Is he some kind of Killers purist?

[markstuk]

"but this one goes to eleven" :-)

[Oopsdabassist]

I would respectfully suggest he wants YOU to change so he can watch your hands to get clues re chords, when I use my E string detuner for certain songs, it drives my guitarist nuts as he can't get his head around what I'm playing!!

[solo4652]

Latest email from guitarist: "The Killers record is played In D but they tune half a step down - so the D sounds like a C#."

My response: "A song (or indeed a single note) that’s played in D, but tuned down a semi-tone is no longer in D – it’s in C#. It sounds like it’s in C# because it is."

Initially, I thought this was another example of the naming and communication confusion caused by guitarists' use of capos and detuning, as summarised by Steve Woodcock above. I'm sure many of us have experienced this. However, the more I talk to the guitarist, the more uncomfortable I get because he insists that the [i]shape[/i] of the chord he's playing dictates what the chord actually is. That instantly causes problems when he, keys player and myself are trying to sort out problems in songs.

We've decided to drop Mr Brightside from the setlist for now.

Edited May 12, 2017 by solo4652

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1494581079' post='3297077']
We've decided to drop Mr Brightside from the setlist for now.
[/quote]

Well that's one way of solving the impasse.

S.P.

[markstuk]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1494581079' post='3297077']
Latest email from guitarist: "The Killers record is played In D but they tune half a step down - so the D sounds like a C#."

My response: "A song (or indeed a single note) that’s played in D, but tuned down a semi-tone is no longer in D – it’s in C#. It sounds like it’s in C# because it is."

Initially, I thought this was another example of the naming and communication confusion caused by guitarists' use of capos and detuning, as summarised by Steve Woodcock above. I'm sure many of us have experienced this. However, the more I talk to the guitarist, the more uncomfortable I get because he insists that the [i]shape[/i] of the chord he's playing dictates what the chord actually is. That instantly causes problems when he, keys player and myself are trying to sort out problems in songs.

We've decided to drop Mr Brightside from the setlist for now.
[/quote]

Does he have a tuner ? Get him to play the downtuned note and ask him to tell you what the tuner says ..

[Twigman]

[quote name='Tonteee' timestamp='1494556219' post='3296971']
The note Db is Db, be it played on the fourth fret of a string tuned to Ab or the fifth fret of a string tuned to A.
[/quote]

The 4th fret of a string tuned to Ab is a C, surely?
The 5th fret of a string tuned to A is a D, isn't it?

Neither are Db

Edited May 12, 2017 by Twigman

[ambient]

[quote name='Oopsdabassist' timestamp='1494573568' post='3297016']
I would respectfully suggest he wants YOU to change so he can watch your hands to get clues re chords, when I use my E string detuner for certain songs, it drives my guitarist nuts as he can't get his head around what I'm playing!!
[/quote]

Try playing a 6 or a 7 string bass, that really does throw them .

[ambient]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1494584973' post='3297138']
The 4th fret of a string tuned to Ab is a C, surely?
The 5th fret of a string tuned to A is a D, isn't it?

Neither are Db
[/quote]

Yes.

[Tonteee]

That'll teach me to wade in, won't it. Especially when I'm 700 miles from my bass.

I'll go back to shutting up! 😀

Edited May 15, 2017 by Tonteee