Pros and Cons of MU Membership

[bassace]

1959, yes I know, it's a long time ago, we were still at school. But after generally noodling around we got a decent band together and for our second gig we were booked to play support to a major British band at Reading Town Hall, capacity 800. This was a big deal to us and there was a big buzz in the school. With a few days to go the promoter told us that the MU told him they wouldn't allow the headline band to play with a non-Union band. We were still at school ffs! So I pulled my savings out of the post office and hurriedly joined the bloody union. I've never forgot those bully boy tactics.

I get Public Liabilty Insurance from AMPBand and instrument insurance from Allianz and consider the MU totally irrelevant to what I do these days.

[Steve Browning]

I can recommend the George Melly book 'Owning Up' as a brilliant first hand account of life in a band in those days - and the opinions of other musicians to those in the Jazz/Rock'n'Roll world.

[Owen]

I am a long time member of the MU. I believe that Unions are a good thing. It is MU negotiated fees which are paid by the media. As soon as that splinters then the fees take a complete nose dive - and this is from the companies which would have no material without the actual performers. When I have had TV companies messing me around about payments, one phone call to the Union makes the magic happen. People talk about going it alone and independance and all that - media companies love that stuff. For them that equals paying less. In Welsh TV there is even a non union and a union rate of pay. You can guess which is the lowest. This despite the production company doing their initial costings (and getting funding) using MU rates. Obviously there are all sorts of situations where the Union can be seen as ineffective, but if you have a signed Union contract for a date then things tend to go very smoothly. There is also the aspect of industry lawyers looking over any contracts offered to members. Is the MU perfect? No, nothing is. But I prefer it to no union. I do not use it often but when I do it is effective. If it does not operate in the sphere you are working in then it is obviously not effective.

[deepbass5]

Thanks Guys -
just joined Ampband - I am already with Allianz but only have £2m PLI not enough for the next gig.
Allianz runs out in Sept and was £165 which is cheaper than the MU my previous MU at £240, but admit did not cover all the same level of benefits.

Just wish the MU provided the flexible cover Ampband clearly are, also see Hencilla Canworth lltd are the Insurers for both. So come on MU what about representing the needs of the weekend warrior - semi pro muso's.

Edited May 15, 2017 by deepbass5

[lowdown]

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1494834811' post='3298752']
I can recommend the George Melly book 'Owning Up' as a brilliant first hand account of life in a band in those days - and the opinions of other musicians to those in the Jazz/Rock'n'Roll world.
[/quote]

Yes, a really good read.

I am 60, so not quite a relic from those days. Although, my dad often talked about his days of 'real' musicians and 'Rock & Roll' players.

My dad was an 'Archer Street' chap, and unfortunately, there was some MU and big band snobbery towards the young whipper snappers. In fact, I quite often heard my dad's mates blaming the Beatles for the Big Band decline.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1494677652' post='3297783']
Fur me st least membership is extremely useful. I wanted a dbs check for my teaching. You can't do this as an individual, but the MU will do it for you.

[/quote]

That's not true at all, £65 online through the official government site, who told you that you can't do it?

[ambient]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1494839649' post='3298801']
That's not true at all, £65 online through the official government site, who told you that you can't do it?
[/quote]


From the government gateway:

[i]Who can ask for a DBS check[/i]
[i]Only employers and licensing bodies can request a DBS check. Job applicants can’t do a criminal records check on themselves. Instead, they can request a basic disclosure from Disclosure Scotland (you don’t have to be from Scotland to do this).[/i]


[url="https://www.gov.uk/disclosure-barring-service-check"]https://www.gov.uk/d...g-service-check[/url]

This is why the MU offer the service.

When I was at uni I did a teaching module as part of my final year. Part of that was visiting schools to observe classes, we had to get a DBS check then through an umbrella organisation, which the university arranged.

Edited May 15, 2017 by ambient

[Steve Browning]

My Dad was also an Archer Street chap!

[stingrayPete1977]

That's who can ask for the check as in ask to see it, not ask to apply for one, there's loads of places online where you can apply for your own DBS.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1494841004' post='3298826']
My Dad was also an Archer Street chap!
[/quote]



You more than likely know the history, but still a good read.
http://www.muhistory.com/from-the-archive-4-archer-street-london/

A marvellous, short documentary and a get together.

http://youtu.be/U2Esuz5CnAc

Edited May 15, 2017 by lowdown

[ambient]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1494841304' post='3298834']
That's who can ask for the check as in ask to see it, not ask to apply for one, there's loads of places online where you can apply for your own DBS.
[/quote]

No, not the case at all. Read it and see. Ask for a DBS check, as in apply for one. Anyone can ask to see the certificate, that's the whole point. I teach kids in their homes, and always show it to the parents.

See here:

[url="https://www.personnelchecks.co.uk/how-to-apply/"]https://www.personnelchecks.co.uk/how-to-apply/[/url]

[ambient]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1494841304' post='3298834']
That's who can ask for the check as in ask to see it, not ask to apply for one, there's loads of places online where you can apply for your own DBS.
[/quote]

Here's a quote:

[i]A Basic Criminal Record Check is the only level which is available for individuals to obtain for themselves. Organisations can also access this level on behalf of their employees.[/i]

That basic level of check is insufficient to teach either in a school, or a to do any kind of work with vulnerable adults.

Edited May 15, 2017 by ambient

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1494842044' post='3298847']


Here's a quote:

[i]A Basic Criminal Record Check is the only level which is available for individuals to obtain for themselves. Organisations can also access this level on behalf of their employees.[/i]

That basic level of check is insufficient to teach either in a school, or a to do any kind of work with vulnerable adults.
[/quote]

Reading up on it, it's not how it's supposed to work, the school shouldn't be accepting your enhanced dbs anyway if it's a position where the enhanced is required, they need to do their own even if you have one.

I work with (around) vulnerable adults and children too but not directly like teaching them but I still have an enhanced dbs, if I was to do that the employer needs to check me themselves.

I worked with a guy when the CRB thing really kicked off in schools, he thought he'd be out of a job as he had been to prison for fighting when he was younger, his CRB came back clear!

All the MU are doing is acting as an umbrella the same as the hundreds of companies online that will do it for you, they are essentially suggesting to the records agency that they are thinking of employing you to access the details then selling them on to you. Everyone knows that's what is going on, how many job applications do they think the MU do per position?!

Edited May 15, 2017 by stingrayPete1977

[ambient]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1494843060' post='3298863']


Reading up on it, it's not how it's supposed to work, the school shouldn't be accepting your enhanced dbs anyway if it's a position where the enhanced is required, they need to do their own even if you have one.

I work with (around) vulnerable adults and children too but not directly like teaching them but I still have an enhanced dbs, if I was to do that the employer needs to check me themselves.

I worked with a guy when the CRB thing really kicked off in schools, he thought he'd be out of a job as he had been to prison for fighting when he was younger, his CRB came back clear!
[/quote]

They changed the rules a few years ago. It used to be that each employer or body had to get their own. That meant people like me, or my cousin who does supply teaching having to get several done. An expensive business, so they made it so they were portable.

[stingrayPete1977]

It's a bit of a mess, you can have a portable one "working in the same workforce", if you are self employed I suppose you are always in the same workforce! But the school should be checking you out like they do for me and will have some kind of annual account, your own enhanced DBS isn't worth anything to them in the event of an incident.

[stingrayPete1977]

This is the official line from the Gov site regarding the institution using your services as a self employed person.



Self-employed workers
Individuals and the self-employed cannot apply for a DBS certificate of their own criminal record, as they cannot ask an exempted question of themselves.

Options available are:

a self-employed person who is eligible for a DBS check can ask the organisation that wishes to contract their services to apply for their DBS check
individuals can get a basic check from Disclosure Scotland which provides details of any ‘unspent’ convictions

[ambient]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1494845664' post='3298881']
This is the official line from the Gov site regarding the institution using your services as a self employed person.



Self-employed workers
Individuals and the self-employed cannot apply for a DBS certificate of their own criminal record, as they cannot ask an exempted question of themselves.

Options available are:

a self-employed person who is eligible for a DBS check can ask the organisation that wishes to contract their services to apply for their DBS check
individuals can get a basic check from Disclosure Scotland which provides details of any 'unspent' convictions
[/quote]

Which is what I said earlier.

Again, that's why the MU offer the service.

Edited May 15, 2017 by ambient

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1494837886' post='3298786']
I am a long time member of the MU. I believe that Unions are a good thing. It is MU negotiated fees which are paid by the media. As soon as that splinters then the fees take a complete nose dive - and this is from the companies which would have no material without the actual performers. When I have had TV companies messing me around about payments, one phone call to the Union makes the magic happen. People talk about going it alone and independance and all that - media companies love that stuff. For them that equals paying less. In Welsh TV there is even a non union and a union rate of pay. You can guess which is the lowest. This despite the production company doing their initial costings (and getting funding) using MU rates. Obviously there are all sorts of situations where the Union can be seen as ineffective, but if you have a signed Union contract for a date then things tend to go very smoothly. There is also the aspect of industry lawyers looking over any contracts offered to members. Is the MU perfect? No, nothing is. But I prefer it to no union. I do not use it often but when I do it is effective. If it does not operate in the sphere you are working in then it is obviously not effective.
[/quote]

That's a good answer for the pros whilst recognising that the MU is not omni-present. Cheers Owen.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1494839649' post='3298801']
That's not true at all, £65 online through the official government site, who told you that you can't do it?
[/quote]

I am assuming you mean this;

"The Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) is now the [b]Disclosure and Barring Service[/b] ([b]DBS[/b])"
[url="https://www.gov.uk/disclosure-barring-service-check/overview"]https://www.gov.uk/d...-check/overview[/url]

I was a volunteer for Sight Support in Derby where I visited a blind chap at home who was a canal enthusiast. They were both getting on in years. He was totally dependant on his wife at home due to various age related issues. I was there because he needed help cataloguing his life time collection of photos and other material while his wife needed someone trusted to stay with him while she either got some badly needed personal time or she got to catch up on her sleep.

Sight Support required me to answer the questions on a CRB form. There was no fee. That was about ten years ago. Things have changed.

Edited May 15, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[ambient]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1494849176' post='3298929']
I am assuming you mean this;

"The Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) is now the [b]Disclosure and Barring Service[/b] ([b]DBS[/b])"
[url="https://www.gov.uk/disclosure-barring-service-check/overview"]https://www.gov.uk/d...-check/overview[/url]
[/quote]

See post #41 though.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1494848310' post='3298917']


Which is what I said earlier.

Again, that's why the MU offer the service.
[/quote]

It's not the MU that are using your services. The school should be checking you themselves at their cost, the enhanced DBS you are showing them that you've obtained from the MU means nothing legally.

[ambient]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1494849649' post='3298935']


It's not the MU that are using your services. The school should be checking you themselves at their cost, the enhanced DBS you are showing them that you've obtained from the MU means nothing legally.
[/quote]

Why?

It means exactly the same as if they'd done it themselves. It's less than four months old. It's been accepted by 2 agencies. Again, it's why the MU offers the services to it's members. It's the same if you were supply teaching, it saves having to have a check done with several LEAs. My cousin when she first qualified 6 or 7 years ago had to get one for each LEA that she taught through. Where she lived was on the border of 4 counties, so 4 DBS checks.

[stingrayPete1977]

It clearly states that the person hiring you should carry it out be you staff or part time, volunteers get it done for free.

[ambient]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1494850484' post='3298942']
It clearly states that the person hiring you should carry it out be you staff or part time, volunteers get it done for free.
[/quote]

They're hiring a self-employed music teacher. This is the whole point of portability of the DBS check, and the update service. Again, a quote:
[color=#515151][size=4]
[size=4][i]The DBS Update Service lets you keep your DBS certificates up to date online and allows employers to check a certificate status at any time.[/i][/size][/size][/color][color=#515151][size=4]
[size=4][i]This system means that whenever you start work with a new employer or contractor, rather than applying for a brand new DBS Certificate, the employer can go to the DBS website to confirm if anything has changed on your record since your last certificate.[/i][/size][/size][/color]

[stingrayPete1977]

https://www.ucheck.co.uk/dbs-checks-for-the-self-employed/

I suppose this sums up what you are saying ambient, the school are taking the word of the MU on it, as long as the school have ticked the box and saved money on doing the check themselves they are happy to go down that route.