More kick drum blowing your eardrums in the mix moaning.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1502229539' post='3350176']...because the kick drum's got to be amplified.
[/quote]

As I've pointed out before, micing up the bass drum is, for us, not a case of amplifying, but merely balancing it out in the mix for the room. My drum can easily fill any venue (and has done, back in the distant past before micing...), but most venues, even pubs, can have a better spread if there's a touch of BD in there. No more; just a touch. It seems that others do things very differently, but micing up is not simply to make what is an already potentially loud instrument louder.
Just sayin'.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1502229539' post='3350176']
My complaint is that this trend has been adopted by pub bands. You end up paying far more for a PA that used to just have to handle vocal requirements because the kick drum's got to be amplified.
[/quote]

We've got our kick mic'd but it does the exact opposite of what you think, it's compressed and gated so it actually has less swampy noises going on, it then allows for a smaller and quieter kick drum on stage, the only thing the audience hears is the tight thump distributed evenly around the room.

[Dad3353]

^^

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1502226566' post='3350151']
Sortof, we played on Fri in the Arena. Obviously I didn`t hear that, but the bands which I heard that had a trebly bass, rather than bassy bass (if that makes sense) sounded great. Skurvi for example, in The Pavillion on Thu were excellent, Liams bass having hi-mids and treble boosted, rather than low end, sounded great. Likewise with JJ of The Last Resort in The Empress on Sunday, again a good deal of high-end on his bass. I think that`s the trick to Rebellion as many bands did seem to have a "wampy" sound. I`ve heard a recording of us - it`s on youtube - and my bass was its usual trebly aggressive sound, and clear as anything in the mix.
[/quote]I saw you do this song, the bass is more prominent in the vid than I remember live although your lot did get an above average sound for that stage, wouldn't say your sound is trebly (from the video anyway) about right really, a middy sound that cuts through, but then again I have to take out my hearing aids at gigs lol

[bassjim]

I think like musicians, some sound guys have got it and some just aint.

Local band to me have probably the worst sound man ever ( all this loud bass drum drowning every thing else out) yet they blindly continue to use him (probably something to do with a van, free gear storage and low pay).

Seen the same band with someone else at the desk and the difference is huge.

When I were a lad the guitarist in the first cover band I was in, did the bands sound and was a complete master at it. He would set it all up and then let the "sound man" tweak levels , but even then only under instruction via the odd nod and pointer here and there.

I think places like the Guildhall must be venues that cant be fixed as I've never heard a good word about anyones sound in there.

A friend of mine saw Paul Weller at some venue in London where Paul said over the mic that the sound in there was so sh*t he would never play there again. And I've done, as have we all, plenty of sh*t rooms just on the cover band circuit, where no matter what its horrible. But all the same .....sound man with little or no idea......

[mikel]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1502229868' post='3350183']
As I've pointed out before, micing up the bass drum is, for us, not a case of amplifying, but merely balancing it out in the mix for the room. My drum can easily fill any venue (and has done, back in the distant past before micing...), but most venues, even pubs, can have a better spread if there's a touch of BD in there. No more; just a touch. It seems that others do things very differently, but micing up is not simply to make what is an already potentially loud instrument louder.
Just sayin'.
[/quote]

Ehh? Surely if the BD is loud enough for any room, then its loud enough. You seem to be suggesting that micing it up will make it quieter????? Surely if its loud enough to be heard in the room, any eq you add to it will not overpower the acoustic sound out front, so will be a waste of time. Just saying.

[Spoombung]

Music, in general, functions really well without BDs...and bass guitars for that matter.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1502272772' post='3350332']


Ehh? Surely if the BD is loud enough for any room, then its loud enough. You seem to be suggesting that micing it up will make it quieter????? Surely if its loud enough to be heard in the room, any eq you add to it will not overpower the acoustic sound out front, so will be a waste of time. Just saying.
[/quote]

See my post about using a smaller/quieter kick drum, the rest of the band can then use smaller back line too, generally I've found the larger the stage the quieter it is.

[TimR]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1502272772' post='3350332']


Ehh? Surely if the BD is loud enough for any room, then its loud enough. You seem to be suggesting that micing it up will make it quieter????? Surely if its loud enough to be heard in the room, any eq you add to it will not overpower the acoustic sound out front, so will be a waste of time. Just saying.
[/quote]

'Can be'

The point is if you're loud enough to be heard at the back of the room, it's pretty much going to be too loud on stage. So you play to the stage volume and mic up for front of house.

.

Edited August 9, 2017 by TimR

[Dad3353]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1502272772' post='3350332']
Ehh? Surely if the BD is loud enough for any room, then its loud enough. You seem to be suggesting that micing it up will make it quieter????? Surely if its loud enough to be heard in the room, any eq you add to it will not overpower the acoustic sound out front, so will be a waste of time. Just saying.
[/quote]

I think you're confusing micing up with amplification. We don't [i]amplify [/i]the BD, we spread its sound through the FOH, that's all. We'll sometimes add an overhead, too. It depends a little on the venue's configuration, but if we want the naked BD to be heard, I'd play it at a certain level, but the sound would be localised. With the FOH support, I can play much softer, and the sound is diffused to the same extent as the vocals. It's not loud at all, merely reinforcing the diffusion. We play pop/rock covers (REM, Radiohead, SOAD, RHCP and much more...), but aren't looking to deafen anyone. We aim to sound [i]musical[/i], not [i]loud[/i]. It works for us, anyway.

[mikel]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1502273963' post='3350347']
See my post about using a smaller/quieter kick drum, the rest of the band can then use smaller back line too, generally I've found the larger the stage the quieter it is.
[/quote]

That wasnt what I was responding too. Dad3353 said his BD was loud enough for any venue, then he miced it. Look at his post. Also, you cant equate stage volume to out front. Even without PA, the rooms we play in If its too loud on stage its too loud out front, and thats with a 20" BD, nothing miced, and small amps. I also play drums and simply change the beater on the BD pedal and modify how hard I hit the drum to control the volume. I like the BD to sound like part of the kit not a sub sonic mush.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1502289803' post='3350492']...Dad3353 said his BD was loud enough for any venue, then he miced it....
[/quote]

To quote myself, I actually wrote[size=4] '[color=#800080][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]My drum can easily fill any venue (and has done, back in the distant past before micing...)[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]'. Note that it's 'can', not 'do'; I'll expand on that, for clarity. Back in the '70s, I was playing variety, with no PA support, in an eight-piece band. We played in many different types of venue (marquees, village halls, cavernous gymnasiums, big concert halls; rarely outdoors...). I could get the drums to fit in any of these, simply by adapting my playing style; some venues needed more stage volume than others. Our sound guy adapted the vocals, flute and sax from the console, but had no control over the drums. It worked well enoughl. Nowadays, however, with our pop/rock stuff, we have better control over what is heard by the floor with a modern PA. The PA can now adapt to any venue (including outdoors and festival stages, and the backline and drums are all at the same, comfortable level, whatever the cubic metres needing filling. FOH is better, stage volume is better... As a bonus, I can now have compression and/or EQ on the drums if it helps, impossible without micing up. I would have liked these options 'back then'; I'd maybe have my 602 cymbals intact, instead of sacrificing them by playing too hard for 'em in a huge hall. Micing up does not automatically mean louder. My drums don't need extra volume (they've got potentially enough for anywhere...), but they're not at their best for all repertoires by hitting 'em as hard as is needed for some places. Brushes, anyone..? [/font][/color][/size]

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1502289803' post='3350492']


That wasnt what I was responding too. Dad3353 said his BD was loud enough for any venue, then he miced it. Look at his post. Also, you cant equate stage volume to out front. Even without PA, the rooms we play in If its too loud on stage its too loud out front, and thats with a 20" BD, nothing miced, and small amps. I also play drums and simply change the beater on the BD pedal and modify how hard I hit the drum to control the volume. I like the BD to sound like part of the kit not a sub sonic mush.
[/quote]

Hmmm do you know what a gate and compression does? Our mic'd kick has less subsonic mush than the actual acoustic drum!

[Dad3353]

Subsonic mush..? [size=5]Subsonic mush..?[/size] I'll have you know, young lad, that Camco drums do [i]not [/i]produce subsonic mush..!

...

Edited August 9, 2017 by Dad3353

[Lozz196]

In my old punk covers band we used to put the bass drum through the PA, but cut the lows on it, and added highs. We also kept it quieter than the volume of the actual drum itself. This just seemed to add presence, plus putting it in the monitors, again just as a presence was helpful for us on stage too.

[leschirons]

Just got back from the Toto gig in Schaffhausen, (Switzerland) Absolutely awful mix. Usual trend, bass drum so loud it made you feel sick. E and B strings on the bass like something from Close encounters, everything above, non existent.

You wouldn't have even known they had a sax player apart from the fact he's 6ft 4in tall. Couldn't hear Lukather for the first three numbers and lead vocals we're inaudible.

Support act though...(Rodger Hodgeson) great mix. Whole drum kit behind an isolation screen and mic'd properly. Only complaint was panned Tom's.

[spectoremg]

Fair points StingrayPete and Dad. The trouble is that most people think amplify means much louder! The misinformed genie is out of the bottle.

[TimR]

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1502693656' post='3352830']
Fair points StingrayPete and Dad. The trouble is that most people think amplify means much louder! The misinformed genie is out of the bottle.
[/quote]

Amplify does mean make louder or bigger.

The A in PA stands for Address. Public Address.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1502697171' post='3352858']
Amplify does mean make louder or bigger.

The A in PA stands for Address. Public Address.
[/quote]

Indeed, but micing up does not [i]automatically [/i]mean amplifying. It's also about diffusion.

[stingrayPete1977]

Yes so you can play the drum quieter then amplify it, possibly actually to the point that the unamplified drum is louder! Guitarists then bring a Marshall stack to the tickled trout so we've no choice but the wheel out the Ampeg fridge, the whole pub is now rattling and the punters have left but hey "you don't need to Mic a drum kit in a pub"

[spectoremg]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1502697171' post='3352858']
Amplify does mean make louder or bigger.

The A in PA stands for Address. Public Address.
[/quote]Ah you see that's what you call a misquote - I said MUCH louder.

[discreet]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1502305625' post='3350606']
In my old punk covers band we used to put the bass drum through the PA, but cut the lows on it, and added highs. We also kept it quieter than the volume of the actual drum itself. This just seemed to add presence, plus putting it in the monitors, again just as a presence was helpful for us on stage too.
[/quote]

Yes... so many people think that as kick drum and bass are 'low' instruments, it's necessary to boost the lows on them for some reason when often the opposite is needed to avoid sub-40Hz crap messing everything up.

[Dad3353]

A buddy of ours, running an events business, is from the '80s 'disco' era; his 'default' sound is based on the subs being audible for literally miles around. When he's doing the PA for our gigs, there's quite a lot of 'education' involved (difficult, and sometimes painful, as he's a very big chap..!). The ears of this generation of sound guys are not tuned to 'hifi' systems, but to festivals ending with a dub session, with hour after hour of DJ, or reggae. Typically, our fellow will arrive with three times too many subs for the occasion; that's just his way of thinking that the event will go down well. It usually does, too, but there's a fair bit of re-adjustment for our sets. It's an inheritance from the dark days of disco, I think, which has skewed their hearing and expectations of what constitutes 'good sound'.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1502711539' post='3352991']
It's an inheritance from the dark days of disco, I think, which has skewed their hearing and expectations of what constitutes 'good sound'.
[/quote]

The wierd thing is that if you went clubbing in the late 70s/early 80s you'd get great sounding bass guitar and bass drum (the latter 4 to the floor) - the sound would be properly separated on the 12" single and the DJ would not be boosting sub sonic mush.

Now if you went to one of the pubs in Handsworth playing dub reggae, the bass would be extremely prominent - using 18" speakers - enough to rattle your small intenstines - but still appropriate to the genre, with all the usual elements perfectly audible.

Sub sonic mush is a much more recent mainstream creation IMHO - partially to do with modern equipment allowing you to do it (give many people a means of boosting the bass and they'll turn it to 11), ludicrously compressed music being acceptable through digital media and becoming the norm, and also people thinking anything 'vintage' is great when in many cases it is and always was complete rubbish - I'm thinking overly scooped mixing techniques; mixing the bass drum at the same volume and sonic space as the bass guitar and other notorious ideas eminating from the 60s and no doubt great for some music of that era, but capable of ruining music from any genre or era with different ideas - to me an analogy would be someone inventing a gadget called 'Phil Spector sound' and every DJ and sound mixer pressing the button for every song they play.

I recently was a wedding guest and was rather amused to hear the DJ provide such a scooped and sub prominent sound that songs by Chic and other disco era acts had far less middle than appropriate - so you could only hear the low notes on the bass, and the bass drum prominently - so you'd lose half the bass line - and complete instruments such as piano. Singing, hi hat and symbols, low notes and bass drum was the basic offering - made for some quite strange sounding songs although the more modern stuff seemed to fare better.

Rant over - I do like the idea of the A in PA meaning address rather than amplifier!!

Edited August 15, 2017 by drTStingray

[spectoremg]

Good point drT. This trend has nothing to do with '70's disco which sounded great.