Small lighting set up for pub band?

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

I've been tasked to look into the feasibility of a small lighting set up for a pub band, just to avoid the "you can have the lights on or off" sort of scenario, and add a little bit of visual interest. I know almost zero about the topic, there doesn't seem to have been much discussion on here in the last couple of years, and I know that technology moves on quickly anyway.

Being a six piece (2 guitars, keys, bass, drums, singer) space is usually at a premium so I'm not sure that T bars either side of us are going to be possible, but I don't know what the alternatives would be. Is it possible to mount something on speaker stands?

Not looking for anything that needs to be programmed - just some multicolour lights that can change automatically or based on sound. Maybe a foot switch to kill everything, or light everything up full might be useful, if such a capability exists? Ideally something that can be expanded in the future if it proves useful/successful. Definitely only interested in LEDs - we've enough problems with cable trip hazards without adding stuff that can burn us or the audience into the mix...

If anyone has any experience of this type of thing, or can point me to any good information resources, then that would be great.

Budget? Not sure really - I don't like buying cheap nonsense that won't last, but I can't see us justifying more than a two or three hundred quid initial outlay.

[mep]

You can buy the LED PAR lights singularly and mount them to the speaker poles I suppose. We bought 2 for our band for around £70 but place them on the floor to compliment our T-bar.

[Mudpup]

We use these on the floor in front of us angled back - they're very good and great value. You get a pair of lights, carry bag and a remote for £160.
You can link them or run them individually using a bunch of built in programs. We also zip tie them onto the speaker stands and run them pointing in each side of the stage sometimes.

https://www.gak.co.uk/en/american-dj-american-dj-vbar-led-pak/105535?gclid=CjwKEAjwjPXIBRDhwICRg-DbgHISJADP6QXp9XNUohDTJ6vgpHGF1-YADDUyOJkbTvxjaHTo4SF5ABoCEF3w_wcB

http://www.americandj.eu/en/vbar-pak.html

heres a link to our FB photos page showing them being used - the beamy ones in the background are different ones (Quad Sweepers) but you can see the stage wash from the VBars quite well https://www.facebook.com/groups/221831483416/photos/

[redbandit599]

I have 4 ledj 7Q5s, two either side and they do the job fine.

You can hang them on bars or they can be used as uplighters. Nice solid units, all metal construction.

I'm no expert but did find a lot of units pre programmed patterns to be a bit 'school disco' - so I got my head around basic dmx and now have a Thomann foot controller and a few patterns. I mostly want/use fades and strong colours (but not all the colours all the time :-)) Worth it imho as then your lights do 'add something' rather than just flicker away randomly.

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

Some food for thought there. I've had a quick look at foot controllers on Thomann, now, so I'm already thinking that some basic programming capability might actually be a good thing.

Would I be too optimistic to assume that you can mix and max DMX capable kit from different manufacturers without encountering compatibility issues?

[whizzzy]

The whole concept of DMX is that it is an industry standard and so will work alongside other DMX kit from a DMX controller. The only thing to be aware of is that some older DMX gear (and this tended to be the pro-end of the market) used 5 pin xlr's instead of the more common 3 pin xlr's found on the more 'cost effective' gear.

Before buying a controller however it is best to do some research as some can be quite complicated to program, it all depends upon what effect and impression you want to achieve. Another option rather than a dedicated controller is to use a lap-top with a USB to DMX controller such as the unit made by Entec for example. There are one or two pieces of free-ware lighting control software out there which can get you up and running relatively cheaply.

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

I spent half an hour last night looking at some YouTube videos, which were specifically about the Chauvet Obey 40, but covered all the basics of scenes, chases, etc., so now I've got a bit of a better idea. That controller, and many others I'm sure, has midi input which would let me do pretty much everything I thought I'd want to do with a foot controller - triggering specific scenes, blackout, and chases. The only thing that might be useful which couldn't be done via midi is tap tempo.

I was also looking on Thomann at lighting stuff, and they seem to have a couple of own brand ranges - Stairville and Fun Genration. A couple of examples, which are literally the cheapest on the list that could be floor standing:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_led_flood_panel_150_40.htm
https://www.thomann.de/gb/fun_generation_led_pot_12x1w_rgbw.htm

Anyone have any experience with these brands? I know that to a certain extent you get what you pay for, and I'm usually an advocate of getting the best you can afford (buy cheap, buy twice, and all that) but these are ridiculously cheap compared to most stuff, and for a simple set up in a small pub they might be good enough. Not to mention the lower cost of replacement when our hugely enthusiastic singer jumps on them - I still need to change the pot in my boost pedal after the last gig...

Could these be the Harley Benton's of lighting? Or are they the Kay's from my mum's seventies mail order catalog...

[colleya]

I bought four individual par lights from Amazon for about £25 each. Our pa tops have bolt holes in the top for ceiling mounts so I use bolts to attach the lights to the top of the speakers and point them down at the band. Attached a 4 gang to the back of each speaker with sticky velcro to take all the plugs.

Two on slow fade between colours and two on a faster setting, set and forget. Tried them on the floor but got fed up with being blinded every time I looked down.

[whizzzy]

[quote name='Gottastopbuyinggear' timestamp='1495266524' post='3302507']
Could these be the Harley Benton's of lighting? Or are they the Kay's from my mum's seventies mail order catalog...
[/quote]

You've hit the nail on the head.

I don't have any direct experience with the units you have itemised but yes, it is very much a case of you get what you pay for. A couple of comments for guidance though.

The first unit with 10mm LEDs is very much old hat now and things have moved on by using fewer LEDs but much higher light output. The downside of using red, green and blue only is that anything other than using red output only, green only or blue only produces a fairly lame colour wash. With all three colours driven the principle is that you should get white. In reality is is a fairly anemic white / cream colour which is produced.

The second unit addresses this by having red, green, blue and white LEDs and this will allow much better colour mixing. The downside is that they are 1W devices so again the overall light output will be limited. Keep in mind that any light output figures quoted will be for everything being driven flat out and as soon as you drop down to one colour for example then the light output will be about a quarter of that, at best.

The other factor about buying low cost items is that often if you want to buy more units at a later date they have either been discontinued or the design has been changed. This can be very frustrating.

In an earlier post RedBandit mentioned the LEDJ 7Q5's. These are quite a bit more expensive than the units you have singled out but I also can recommend these. I use 8 of these for our band and they were bought to replace 8 x PAR 56 Par Cans and they produce about 75% of the light output of the Par Cans but infinitely more variable in colour mixing.

Follow your own advice and buy once, cry once.

Edited May 21, 2017 by whizzzy

[Handwired]

Go for a C.O.B. design, that means full color spectrum from one fixture. try:
http://www.adj.com/dotz-par

[Woodinblack]

I bought 2 of the stairville lights mentioned above
https://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_led_flood_panel_150_40.htm

one long dmx cable and mains extension cable, set them to sound to light and put them on the ground either side of the stage when we are playing.
All fits in one box, and does the job fine.

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

Thanks for all the responses.

[quote name='whizzzy' timestamp='1495353513' post='3303089']
The other factor about buying low cost items is that often if you want to buy more units at a later date they have either been discontinued or the design has been changed. This can be very frustrating.
[/quote]

I'm still getting my head around DMX, but if my understanding is correct then the first three or four channels on a fixture will correspond to RGB or RGBW, so in general mixing different units shouldn't be too much of an issue? I'm not too bothered about mixing different manufacturers if the basic compatibility is ensured by the DMX specification (you should see the PA and monitoring solution we use!) but on the other hand a career in IT has led me to realise that one manufacturer's interpretation of a spec is often different to another.

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1495406995' post='3303559']
I bought 2 of the stairville lights mentioned above
[url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_led_flood_panel_150_40.htm"]https://www.thomann....anel_150_40.htm[/url]

one long dmx cable and mains extension cable, set them to sound to light and put them on the ground either side of the stage when we are playing.
All fits in one box, and does the job fine.
[/quote]

Setting aside any issues with the quality of white you might get from those devices, do they put out sufficient light to give a reasonable colour wash? I know I'm probably not comparing apples with apples, but the maximum power consumption of those is stated as 18W, half that of the ADJ Dotz that Handwired mentioned, and less than a third of the 7Q5's which whizzzy and redbandit mentioned, so I'm wondering how bright they are. On the other hand, the only time I've played on a stage with a few PAR cans dotted around I found it a complete pain when I had one pointed almost directly at me and I spent half the night squinting...

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='Gottastopbuyinggear' timestamp='1495454150' post='3303797']
Setting aside any issues with the quality of white you might get from those devices, do they put out sufficient light to give a reasonable colour wash?
[/quote]

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL80q7SIpLU[/media]

Those lights are the only lighting used here. Badly positioned, but still quite a bit of light.

[citymariner]

I'd get 8 LED PARs - ADJ TriPAR or a QTX 6in1 or the like, 2 x t bar stands that go up to 3m in height.

Couple of long IEC cables then male to female IECs to link them. Same with DMX cable.

ENTEC open DMX controller plugged into a laptop running QLC+ and design some lighiting mixes. You can then get an external trigger like an AKAI Mini or the like (or even a foot controller)

You can set a couple of the 8 to be key lights to flood the front line in white and then use the other 6 to wash the rest of the band. Positioning is key and you can make 8 LED PARs like the ADJ tripar go a long way with a bit of practice.

https://flic.kr/p/U16wZj

I doubled what I started with above and get this effect now.

Edited May 22, 2017 by citymariner

[moonbass]

You could also look at the ADJ Airstream DMX interface - think of it like a wifi router so that you can control DMX from your phone or iPad. The ADJ app is a bit rubbish to be honest, but apparently a new update makes it compatible with an app called Light Writer which will do automated programmes and sound to light. I've not had a chance to try it yet, but on paper it looks great.

For what it's worth the COB Pars I've got are amazing, but only ever get to use them at less than 10% in pubs as they're so bright. Whatever you choose lights work a lot better with a little fog, but not alll venues allow it. I've often wondered about getting a couple of friends to 'vape' furiously during a set though

[moonbass]

Oh, and you're right about DMX addressing; usually the first channels are RGB and then white (but can be amber or uv etc). You have to set each fixture to the number of channels you want (typically even led pars can have a lot more than 3-4 channels: fade, strobe etc). DMX is universally compatible, but controllers are dumb, i.e. they can't tell what fixtures they're plugged in to (which I find ridiculous in this century!) they just send out info on each channel, and you have to set the fixtures correctly for this to be interpreted right. Using computers as controllers helps, as they often have all the different manufacturers settings pre programmed. If you use a basic hardware controller you have to get the numbers right yourself (this is a pain in the...)

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

[quote name='citymariner' timestamp='1495486320' post='3304189']
I'd get 8 LED PARs - ADJ TriPAR or a QTX 6in1 or the like, 2 x t bar stands that go up to 3m in height.
[/quote]

[quote name='moonbass' timestamp='1495501775' post='3304283']
You could also look at the ADJ Airstream DMX interface
[/quote]

Whoa there guys - I don't think I'm going to fit that stuff into my two or three hundred quid budget! But it has given me a lot to think about.

At the moment I think I'm going to propose giving 4 relatively cheap units a go, probably starting with just the built in autorun capabilities while I investigate DMX control a bit. The few COB units I looked at all seem to be pretty powerful, so taking into account the comment from moonbass I think they might be over the top for a small pub band set up, not to mention being relatively pricey. The ADJ TriPAR and QTX 6 in 1 look like pretty good options at around the £60 a piece mark, I think the QTX being favourite at the moment based on being a bit more powerful. I'm not sure what the LEDJ 7Q5 would give over those units other than a metal housing, though I'll need to make sure they're placed out of our singer's "jump zone".

On the control side, I'm not keen on running stuff from a laptop, but I took a very quick look at QLC+ and see that you can run that on a Raspberry Pi, so that's really kicked my inner geek into life - especially if I could control it from the Arduino based MIDI foot switch box I built... On the other hand, the Chauvet Obey 40, for example, can be had for about £80 and that would give me the the midi control capabilities I think I want.

[moonbass]

If you're keeping it simple but still want a foot controller, then (and I don't think anyone's mentioned these yet) the pre-made 'party bar' option might give you better value and simplicity.
They range from the ridiculous...:
https://www.djkit.com/chauvet/chauvet-gig-bar-20.html
To the cheap and cheerful:
https://www.djkit.com/chauvet/chauvet-4bar-lt-usb.html
Not as many options as with 'proper' DMX, but none of the headache (and remember if you buy separates you'll need to buy DMX cables, stands and carry cases which soon rack up the cost.)

[Paul S]

I bought two of these KAM Party bar thingies

[url="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kam-Lighting-Led-Partybar-V2/dp/B00603XK8K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495613218&sr=8-1&keywords=kam+party+bar"]https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kam-Lighting-Led-Partybar-V2/dp/B00603XK8K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495613218&sr=8-1&keywords=kam+party+bar[/url]

Connected via a DMX cable they run together. I either set them up to give a changing colour wash or change to sound (which can be a bit school disco but lively enough). Cheap and cheerful but perfectly adequate.

They will be in the classifieds soon, as it happens, as I am no longer the Keeper of The Lights in my current bands.

[Phil Starr]

Late to the party I'm afraid.

My need was exactly the same as yours, to keep away from the lights on or off scenario. I started on the Parbar route, four lights with the controller built into the pole with a foot controller. I wouldn't recommend these particularly, the built in programs are for discos and just change too quickly for most bands, not great for your big ballad You can set them to static but who needs four identical lights. I also got complaints for band members that they are quite bright shining into their eyes the beams are quite narrow. They ended up on the floor so I went out and bought a 12 light strip (something like this https://www.lighthouseaudiovisual.co.uk/ledj-pixel-storm-12-tri-batten-led-bar-67054-p.asp?gclid=COSA9oKTiNQCFQu4GwodrqMDLw ). It sits behind the drummer and lights up the whole rear wall. It's 12x3W triclour led and it's enough for the places we play, good strong colours, crucially it only responds to bass in the sound to light mode so keeps time with the closest bass source, kick or bass. I'm going to add a couple of static led par lights to give the stage a colour wash and some light when the music stops. I like the idea of just three lights and I use the parbar to light the audience, they are really excellent for this. The drummer has a little laser light which creates little points of red and green that swirl around us. That works well for a bit of atmosphere.

As to brands I don't think there is a whole lot of variation short of the genuinely pro stuff which'll cost more than your PA. It all looks like it comes out of the same factory in China. Look out for the larger leds and COB lights as people have said. The Harley Bensons were only cheaper than the Chauvet, ADJ and Kam lights when I checked because the came with lesser stands and check you are getting a decent metal housing if you want it all to stand regular use. Outside of the main disco brands there is some remarkably cheap stuff on eBay but I've fought shy of trying it.

I decide not to go the DMX controller route, just too distracting to fiddle with when I'm supposed to be playing bass.

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

An update - I've carefully researched all the options, arrived at an appropriate criteria for selecting a product, and carried out the selection process. When I took my blindfold off I found I'd stuck the pin in ADJ TriPAR (Mega TriPAR Profile Plus, to be precise).

More seriously, the reasons I've gone for these are:
- Readily available (next day delivery using my Amazon Prime, so I have something to play with this weekend), and still in production (The QTX 6 in 1 I was also looking at seems to be discontinued) in case we want to add more in the near future.
- No fan, so less stuff to fail
- Beam angle of 40 degrees, which is a bit wider than the other similar units I looked at, and might make a difference in the confined spaces we seem to end up playing in.
- Compact, light.
- Ability to daisy chain IEC cables as well as DMX (some units only have a power in socket)
- Known brand, reasonable reviews.
- Ability to select various autorun settings, and control things such as speed and sound sensitivity, via DMX.

I've ordered a pair to have a look at. Based on that I'll decide whether to get a couple (or more) more of the same, or take a look at a different unit - the LEDJ 7Q5's being next favourite, and only a few quid each more expensive.

The plan, which is a very grand term for something that may or may not happen, is to see whether the autorun programs will be sufficient in the short term without having to go too far with programming scenes and chases in a DMX controller.

I am, however, planning to try QLC+ on a Raspberry Pi with a simple home built MIDI foot controller to enable me to change between some of the autorun programs as well as do full on and blackout. That's where the point about changing speed and sound sensitivity via DMX comes in, as I can't imagine wanting to fiddle around clicking menu buttons on the units themselves when I'm trying to set them up, but I can imagine tweaking a DMX parameter from a MIDI controller.

If sound activated doesn't give a reasonable result then I'm hoping that being able to flick between a few different autorun programs with different speeds would be okay, and I'm confident that QLC+ will let me do that. I've ordered a cheap USB DMX interface from Amazon, the reviews for which indicate it'll work with QLC+, and I'll give it a go from my laptop before splurging the €15 for the Raspberry Pi build.

I'll post an update once I've made some progress in case anyone's interested.

[weeleigh]

I'm in a similar situation as you, so would be quite interested to find out how you got on?

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

So far I've bought two of the ADJ Mega TriPAR Profile Plus units, and one of these: [url="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lixada-Interface-Computer-Lighting-Controller/dp/B00ZQNIAP8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497011016&sr=8-1&keywords=usb+dmx."]https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lixada-Interface-Computer-Lighting-Controller/dp/B00ZQNIAP8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497010946&sr=8-1&keywords=usb+dmx[/url]. I've also downloaded QLC+ and had a play around with it.

The USB DMX interface works out of the box on my MacBook and on the Raspberry Pi QLC+ image. It also works on Windows 10 but needs a bit of fiddling about with installation of unsigned drivers, so not necessarily something for people who aren't particularly tech savvy. QLC+ is pretty straightforward to use, and there's quite a lot of material on the web.

I've had no problem with using a MIDI interface to drive QLC, both to trigger the built in autorun programs in the lights, and to trigger scenes and chases set up in QLC.

I've already moved on from planning to use the autorun programs, and have built some basic chases in QLC, mainly because you can use tap tempo, triggered via MIDI, to govern the speed of the scene changes in the chases. So for example you could start a song, tap on the first beat of the first bar, tap again on first beat of the third bar, and you'll have the scenes lights change every other bar. You can then speed up or slow down the changes as the song progresses.

I tried this out at a practice on Tuesday as a "proof of concept" and it worked pretty well. I had a four button midi footswitch, with the buttons being blackout, full on white, start chase (or toggle between a change or fade chase) and tap tempo. The band were pretty keen so I'm going to order another pair of the TriPARs, and try one each side of the band pointing vaguely inwards and upwards, and two in front of the drum kit pointing up and out - sort of like this / \ / \ across the width of the stage (or rather the corner of the pub we're crammed into) as you face the band. If you get my drift...

I'm going to build either a second four button footswitch, or just a single 8 button version, and then I can add the ability to select between a few different chases, both fades and changes, to stop it getting boring.

Unfortunately we're on a bit of a hiatus at the moment while one of the guitarists is on holiday for a couple of weeks followed by the singer for five (!) weeks. We have a few gigs lined up from the end of July, though, so I'll get a chance to try the set up out in a gig situation then.

Happy to share more details on the footswitch if anyone's interested - it's based on a Teensy 3.2 board for which there's a MIDI over USB library, so for anyone who's done any basic coding of any sort it would be pretty easy.

[Woodinblack]

I have just got one of the DMX cables to have a play round with. As mentioned up there I just have the couple of lights and doubt I will be expanding on that at any point. I currently don't have midi footswitches but I could really do with some anyway, as I have to apply effects to the microphones at one point in a song, so maybe I will. Currently the feet are a bit busy as I have a pedalboard anyway.

Should be interesting to play round with though and pretty cheap either way.

[weeleigh]

Do the ADJ's give a good white light output? I'm looking for something that will light the band up from the front or the side, as well as giving a good colour lighting display.
I was thinking of the Stairville's from Thomann, but I'm not convinced they would give a good white light output.