Violin bass questions regarding Intonation, Scale length, String tension

[markdavid]

As per a previous thread I have recently bought a lovely Violin bass copy, looks gorgeous, sounds even better, seems solidly built.
The one thing that is bugging me however is the intonation, I understand that generally floating bridges tend to have fairly funky intonation

I have a few questions about this type of bass

1. Why is the intonation on these type of bridges funky? I understand you cannot individually move saddles but as you can move the bridge this should not matter

2. Why are the measurements for the position of the bridge so different, to illustrate what I mean by this a typical Fender bridge has the saddles maybe approx 1-1.5 cm from the ball ends of the strings, the violin bass often has the bridge (and corresponding saddles much further forward, surely the fact that the bridge is floating shouldn't really have much of an impact

3. The scale length thing confuses me, a violin bass has a 30" scale but surely the fact that the bridge is much further forward than say a Fender mustang (another 30" scale bass) means that the scale length is actually shorter than the 30" ???

4. String tension should be lower on a violin bass than most 30" scale basses as the speaking length of the string is shorter due to the bridge being further forward, am I correct in this assumption?

5. How far forward is the norm for the bridge on these basses?

6. What is the best way to intonate these basses?

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='markdavid' timestamp='1495444051' post='3303683']

1. Why is the intonation on these type of bridges funky? I understand you cannot individually move saddles but as you can move the bridge this should not matter.
[color=#0000ff]Actually you can move individual saddles - just remove the piece of fret wire (for, dear reader, that is what the saddle is) and place it in another slot. Trying to intonate four strings simultaneously by tapping the entire bridge to move it in fractions of a millimetre is pretty much a guarantee of "funky".[/color]

2. Why are the measurements for the position of the bridge so different, to illustrate what I mean by this a typical Fender bridge has the saddles maybe approx 1-1.5 cm from the ball ends of the strings, the violin bass often has the bridge (and corresponding saddles much further forward, surely the fact that the bridge is floating shouldn't really have much of an impact.
[color=#0000ff]Not entirely sure this is relevant? Trying to picture what you mean, and failing. [/color]

3. The scale length thing confuses me, a violin bass has a 30" scale but surely the fact that the bridge is much further forward than say a Fender mustang (another 30" scale bass) means that the scale length is actually shorter than the 30" ???
[color=#0000ff]The scale length is actually 30.5" and the bridge should be no "further forward" than is required to meet that length.[/color]

4. String tension should be lower on a violin bass than most 30" scale basses as the speaking length of the string is shorter due to the bridge being further forward, am I correct in this assumption?
[color=#0000ff]Not as far as I am aware, but someone who knows that they're talking about will be with you in a minute.[/color]

5. How far forward is the norm for the bridge on these basses?
[color=#0000ff]Sufficient to give a 30.5" scale length.[/color]

6. What is the best way to intonate these basses?
[color=#0000ff]If I say "trial and error" you may think I'm taking the piss, but actually I'm not.[/color]
[/quote]

[Andyjr1515]

I agree with Jack's answers above. I think your confusion is probably between string length and scale length - easily done.

The scale length - 30" on your Mustang and 30.5" on your violin bass - is the distance from the nut to the bridge saddles, and nothing to do with how much string is behind the saddle.

The string tension, for a given set of strings, will be the same as any other 30.5" scale bass, although a tiny bit higher than any 30" scale bass.

Different designs of basses then have different ways of securing the strings - some attached to the bridge assembly itself (such as a Fender P-bass) where the ball ends are very close to the saddles and some with a string retaining stop bar some distance behind (think Warwick or a semi-acoustic jazz design). Neither affects the scale length or string tension.

Hope that helps

Edited May 22, 2017 by Andyjr1515

[Andyjr1515]

With reference to intonation, Jack is also right where you have a floating bridge!

If a bridge is set at EXACTLY the scale length, then what you will generally find is that the notes ring out sharper and sharper as you go up the fretboard. That is because, by pressing the string down to the fret, you are basically doing a string-bend, albeit vertically and not horizontally.

The further up the frets you go, the larger the gap is between the string and the frets and therefore the more you are bending the string.

Also the thicker the string, the more the bending affects the pitch.

So the saddles are actually usually positioned approximately 1 to 3mm further back than the actual scale length

To set your bridge in a rough approximation of intonated, position either the bridge or saddles so that G is 1mm longer than the 30.5" scale length and the E is 3mm longer and the other two are relative to those two points.

Then tune up to proper pitch, sound the harmonic at the 12th fret and then CAREFULLY fret down (vertical so you are not actually bending the strings horizontally too). If it's the same note, you are intonated. If the fretted note is sharp, move the bridge (if it's all of them) or the saddle (if it's only one or two of them) back a mm and try again. Likewise, if the fretted note is flat, then move the bridge / saddle forward a mm and try again.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Andyjr1515

[ikay]

Re #4 - only thing I'd add to this is that the slightly greater string length from the saddle to the tailpiece, and the shallower break angle over the saddles, makes the strings feel a bit more 'compliant' compared with a regular one-piece bridge. Both these factors give the illusion of slightly less tension but in fact it's just down to the geometry and the strings moving ever so slightly more freely over the saddles. The string tension itself is exactly the same as if they were on any other bass of the same scale.

Edited May 22, 2017 by ikay

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1495473065' post='3304005']
Re #4 - only thing I'd add to this is that the slightly greater string length from the saddle to the tailpiece, and the shallower break angle over the saddles, makes the strings feel a bit more 'compliant' compared with a regular one-piece bridge. Both these factors give the illusion of slightly less tension but in fact it's just down to the geometry and the strings moving ever so slightly more freely over the saddles. The string tension itself is exactly the same as if they were on any other bass of the same scale.
[/quote]
^ Yup - spot on

[markdavid]

Thanks for the replies,yes seems i have been a little confused about scale length,i think what caused the confusion in that the bridge seems more far forward than my other 30" scale basses, last night i took the violin bass and one of my other basses off their stands and lay them next to each other and whilst the bridge on the violin bass is slightly further forward it is also a slightly longer bass.
Going forward i think the best idea is for me to get out the tape measure and move the bridge to exactly bang on 3o.5" as a starting point and make small changes from there

[ikay]

This pic of your bass from the JHS/Vintage website may be a useful reference (bridge looks to be about 1cm from the end of the pickguard)

[URL=http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/iankay/media/Stuff/Violin%20bass.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/iankay/Stuff/Violin%20bass.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[BigRedX]

The scale length of any bass is the distance from the nut to the 12th fret x 2.

[James Nada]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1495526347' post='3304384']
This pic of your bass from the JHS/Vintage website may be a useful reference (bridge looks to be about 1cm from the end of the pickguard)

[URL=http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/iankay/media/Stuff/Violin%20bass.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/iankay/Stuff/Violin%20bass.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[/quote]

That's a good starting point for roughing out the intonation too.
However, on my Club bass I have all the bridge "fret wires" in a straight line (relative to the piece of wood they sit in) but have the bridge itself angled to give the best intonation.

[markdavid]

Hi, may be a silly question but how do you reposition the saddles? I cannot see a way to take the saddles out to reposition them

[ikay]

With a very small screwdriver or spike of some sort. Very gently prise them out. They're just little strips of fretwire pressed into a slot.

[markdavid]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1495611651' post='3305196']
With a very small screwdriver or spike of some sort. Very gently prise them out. They're just little strips of fretwire pressed into a slot.
[/quote]
Thanks, will give this a try

[markdavid]

Something has just occured to me that I hadnt thought of before, perhaps the intonation issue is caused by an incorrectly cut nut, the reason I say this is that all strings are a little flat fretted but the E and the A string are particularly flat at the 1st fret

[ikay]

Unlikely as your model has a zero fret, but make sure that the nut is cut low enough for the strings to be resting securely on the zero fret.

[markdavid]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1495621989' post='3305330']
Unlikely as your model has a zero fret, but make sure that the nut is cut low enough for the strings to be resting securely on the zero fret.
[/quote] The newer versions seem to have a zero fret but mine definitely does not have one

[BigRedX]

You need to tackle one "problem" at a time or you'll never get a set up you are happy with.

Get the bridge in the correct place so that the notes produced by fretting the strings at the 12th fret and their harmonics at the same position are the same, and then (and only then) if the notes in the first and second fret positions are still out of tune have a look at the nut.

[ikay]

Aha, I didn't realise that It's sill unlikely to be an issue as long as the strings are making a good witness point with the fretboard edge of the nut. If, for example, it was cut really badly and the witness point was towards the headstock end of the nut then the first fret would actually be sharp rather than flat.

Set it up following the guidelines from everyone above and use a tuner to check the intonation at the 12th fret.

Here's another link explaining how to do it - [url="http://www.ehow.com/how_5778797_adjust-intonation-hofner-bass.html"]http://www.ehow.com/how_5778797_adjust-intonation-hofner-bass.html[/url]

[markdavid]

wondering if it is my boss tu2 being funny with me, the reason I mention this is that I played a gig with my bass the other day, my guitarist who usually has pretty sharp ears did not pick up on dodgy the intonation and we played a tune that featured a lot of the low G which is one of the more problematic notes.
Not ruling out the possibility of my intonation being less than perfect just saying that maybe the boss pedal is showing it incorrectly, I have always found it to be a fussy pedal and with my other basses a note can show as being perfectly in tune on the tu2 and then a split second later show as very slightly sharp.
I have another tuner pedal that I will use to check the intonation with and see if the results are the same.

Edited May 25, 2017 by markdavid

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='markdavid' timestamp='1495702665' post='3305926']
... we played a tune that featured a lot of the low G which is one of the more problematic notes.
[/quote]

???

I've had any number of old shortscale Hofners (actually ... ahem ... over 25 of them) and I've never experienced intonation issues down by the nut!

Normally the problems get progressively worse as you move up the neck.

Is the G issue in any way worse or more noticeable than the F# or G#?

[markdavid]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1495706084' post='3305965']
???

I've had any number of old shortscale Hofners (actually ... ahem ... over 25 of them) and I've never experienced intonation issues down by the nut!

Normally the problems get progressively worse as you move up the neck.

Is the G issue in any way worse or more noticeable than the F# or G#?
[/quote]
Hi , the G# is ok , not perfect but close enough that it does not bother me, the G is showing as 20 cents flat on my Boss TU2 and the F is also showing as 20 cents flat, on the A string the A# and B are also showing about 20 cents flat, the C is not perfect but close enough , on the D and G string curiously the first few frets are fine, not perfect but close enough, this is why I thought it might be an incorrectly cut nut as the D and G are better intonated than the E and A.
intonation on the D and G gets a little spotty further up the neck but I would expect that

[Happy Jack]

Hmmmmm. I begin to wonder about your bass ...

You mention that it is "a lovely violin bass copy" in your OP.

Who is it actually by?

There are some very well-made, high-class Hofner clones out there. Sad to relate, there's also some complete dogs.

[markdavid]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1495708301' post='3305992']
Hmmmmm. I begin to wonder about your bass ...

You mention that it is "a lovely violin bass copy" in your OP.

Who is it actually by?

There are some very well-made, high-class Hofner clones out there. Sad to relate, there's also some complete dogs.
[/quote]
Hi , is made by Vintage

[Andyjr1515]

Hi again

Not sure from the above if you've fully sorted the standard intonation / bridge position yet? If not, you need to remember that everything affects everything and that any stringed instrument is a collection of compromises held together by enthusiasm and hope!

Put simply, as the others say, no note is going to ring right if the bridge isn't properly positioned - so get this right first if it isn't already.

The nut will not create a flattened note, however badly it might have been cut...

[markdavid]

Thanks for the replies,i have taken my bass to an excellent luthier who has done great work for me in the past to sort out the intonation