"He has no internal rhythm" - how can you teach this?

[JimBobTTD]

The drummer said this about the singer the other week. He sometimes, instead of coming in on the 1, will come in between the 3 and 4 before it.

I have, in the most diplomatic and pedagogical way, suggested that he [b][i]learn the damn[/i][/b] [i][b]songs[/b][/i] so that he sings the lyrics from memory...I think this will help him know the songs better. He is still reading the lyrics of sheets, even though we have been doing them for months. For some songs, he goes off memory but often gets them wrong.

I also suggested that he look at a clock, watch the seconds tick by, count along with it, then close his eyes for a while, opening them to see whether he is still right. This will, if nothing else, give him an idea of [i]time[/i] if not [i]timing[/i].

Any other tips? We have our first gig in three weeks. It will be the singer's first as a frontman (he has done open-mic gigs and busking before).

For those with a good memory, yes, this is the band I joined in January where I noted that everyone was very inexperienced. I decided to stick it out as it improved.

[spike]

Does your singer understand beats and bars?

[FinnDave]

Getting a singer to learn lyrics seems to be an uphill struggle. I used to play with (in the musical sense!) a former 'rock star' singer who never seemed able (or maybe willing) to learn the words to the songs, even the ones she chose. I still cringe at the memory of her telling the audience that the next song was a real favourite of hers, that it really meant so much to her, and them proceeded to pull a sheet with the lyrics on out of her bag and read them as she sang.

[T-Bay]

Sounds like practice is the key, I am inexperienced and it takes me a while to get some bits of bassline spot on. I have listened to some bits of songs tens of times just to be 100% on what I am doing but it takes time. I think some people just assume they can do it on the hop and it will be ok when in reality it comes don to experience and hard work, more of one allows less of the other.

[FinnDave]

You'd think a singer would be able to practice anywhere, a tape/cd/whatever of the songs in the car should give them plenty of time to get it right. Playing bass in the car would be a bit more difficult.

[lojo]

Remembering words and having a feel for he song are 2 different things , anyone can forget words , but if you don't know where to come in from feeling or instinctive memory , it's going to be hard to learn that

I'm assuming we are talking about covers and not originals that one can't listen to at home over and over

Edited May 29, 2017 by lojo

[la bam]

If he's coming in early he could just be panicking.

Take the lyrics away and practice, practice, practice. It'll soon sink in once he's relaxed. If he's 'thinking' about when to come in, rather than feeling it he'll not get it right (too much going on in his head). Think of it like playing 16th notes, you dont count to 16, but the feel tells you where it is. When you first try that it's very difficult, then when you've played it again again and again, it becomes second nature and you relax, playing it spot on.

[ambient]

[quote name='spike' timestamp='1496089574' post='3308731']
Does your singer understand beats and bars?
[/quote]

This.

[chris_b]

He's not up to it. Get another singer.

[blue]

Some of these guys are coming in with rather weak perspective on playing drums in a band.

All the things the OP mentioned are things a drummer should already know.

Sounds like the typical case of;

He doesn't get it.

Blue

[bazzbass]

some people just never get the fact that not EVERYONE can be a musician.

no amount of lessons can teach a tone deaf person or rhythmically challenged musician.

He can't remember lyrics and doesn't know how to count , this person is NOT a singer.

[JimBobTTD]

[quote name='spike' timestamp='1496089574' post='3308731']
Does your singer understand beats and bars?
[/quote]

I have counted with him (1-2-3-4; 1-2-3-4) and he is mostly ok with it. I think he understands them but has a bit of anti-elitism in him that makes him reject music theory.

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1496090037' post='3308740']
You'd think a singer would be able to practice anywhere, a tape/cd/whatever of the songs in the car should give them plenty of time to get it right. Playing bass in the car would be a bit more difficult.
[/quote]

There have been times when I have been unable to remain diplomatic and pedagogical and I have reminded him that he has the easiest part of the songs to learn.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1496099102' post='3308825']
He's not up to it. Get another singer.
[/quote]

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1496114354' post='3308849']
some people just never get the fact that not EVERYONE can be a musician.

no amount of lessons can teach a tone deaf person or rhythmically challenged musician.

He can't remember lyrics and doesn't know how to count , this person is NOT a singer.
[/quote]

I am starting to think the same. But with a gig in three weeks (and I shall be away on business for two), we do not have the time to do this.


Thanks for the comments. Any more ideas about how he can be taught?

[Trueno]

My first band when playing bass was very inexperienced and a real shocker after my sax playing gigs. The (so called) lead guitarist was incapable of counting and just stuck fills in at random moments. If it's your first band you should just stick with it for a while to gain a bit of experience and then find a decent band.
It's best to be in a band where everyone else is better than you... it's challenging but much more satisfying and you will improve hugely. Sounds like you are banging your head against a brick wall with this lot... I 've been there... very frustrating.

[Norris]

It sounds like he's simply not taking the job seriously. A singist is a musician, the same as every other member of the band. If you're not going to strive to be better, you never will be. Raw talent, to whatever degree, will only get you so far. As the saying goes, take a s**t or get off the pan!

[tonyquipment]

Shouldn't need to teach someone when to come in. It should be natural.

[tauzero]

It's not just about the 1, it's also about the word that the 1 hits, which isn't necessarily the start of the line. The vocal line often has a couple of words before the 1 - "well you WALKED into the party/like you were STEPping onto a a yacht" for example. Mrs Zero used to complain that most of my songs featured that, then I pointed out that half the covers we did also did that.

[PawelG]

I used to have a friend that "played guitar" and he had no sense of rhythm whatsoever. We would start playing together to a simple drum beat, and he would tap his foot like he was hearing something else. I would also hear from him that my bass "doesn't fit".
I have talked to my teacher with years of experience teaching music professionally. He said he's had students like that and just described it as "strange".
Seems to me like the only way for a person like that to be in the band is to put a lot of effort and learn everything bang on, no improvisation. And that will take time. The biggest problem (exactly as my friend) is when the person doesn't accept the possibility of them being rhytmically challenged - they simply can't hear it and won't listen to anyone. As much as I tried to give friendly hints and help, at the end I would just hear "it's my style, sounds good to me". And I can understand that, it makes perfect sense. If you're playing alone. Preferably with headphones.

[Happy Jack]

Discolexia is a terrible thing, but it's not your job to try to cure it.

If your singer can't hack singalongarock then he'll be a waste of space in your band.

Painful as it may be, you'd be better off cancelling that gig, sacking the singer, and finding someone new.

Can anyone else in the band sing?

[la bam]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1496128902' post='3308890']
It's not just about the 1, it's also about the word that the 1 hits, which isn't necessarily the start of the line. The vocal line often has a couple of words before the 1 - "well you WALKED into the party/like you were STEPping onto a a yacht" for example. Mrs Zero used to complain that most of my songs featured that, then I pointed out that half the covers we did also did that.
[/quote]

The above is spot on. Sometimes people try and start the entire line on one. I'd say go through this with him. He may be struggling to fit the words before one comes in?

Be patient, explain, then make him put the work in.

[mikel]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1496090037' post='3308740']
You'd think a singer would be able to practice anywhere, a tape/cd/whatever of the songs in the car should give them plenty of time to get it right. Playing bass in the car would be a bit more difficult.
[/quote]

This. Vocals are the easiest to learn. CDs on every time you drive or MP3s while walking. Timing is a different ballgame.

Edited May 30, 2017 by mikel

[T-Bay]

[quote name='PawelG' timestamp='1496131203' post='3308905']
I used to have a friend that "played guitar" and he had no sense of rhythm whatsoever. We would start playing together to a simple drum beat, and he would tap his foot like he was hearing something else. I would also hear from him that my bass "doesn't fit".
I have talked to my teacher with years of experience teaching music professionally. He said he's had students like that and just described it as "strange".
Seems to me like the only way for a person like that to be in the band is to put a lot of effort and learn everything bang on, no improvisation. And that will take time. The biggest problem (exactly as my friend) is when the person doesn't accept the possibility of them being rhytmically challenged - they simply can't hear it and won't listen to anyone. As much as I tried to give friendly hints and help, at the end I would just hear "it's my style, sounds good to me". And I can understand that, it makes perfect sense. If you're playing alone. Preferably with headphones.
[/quote]
I know exactly what you mean with this. I find that if I learn something on my own it's dead simple to fit into the overall song when we are together as it's just obvious where it goes. I run a guitar club where I work and there is one lad who just can't do it, no matter how many times we go over it he always comes in at the wrong place. So now we have him looking at one of us when he performs and we give him a visual cue to come in and to keep time by. Works in that situation but wouldn't work in a band for one minute I don't suppose.

[41.2Hz]

Sorry to say but there really are some people that just don't have natural rhythm. Our singer is a bit like the one the OP describes. He does however recognise the issue and gets around it mostly by learning the songs verbatim (we play exclusively covers). Every once in a while he takes my breath away by coming in on the wrong beat, and staying on the wrong beat until the rest of us fall about laughing. This is fine in rehearsal, but once in a while it happens when we perform. It certainly keeps you on your toes!

We put up with it as otherwise he's a very good front man.

[chris_b]

I was 9 when I realised that [i]time[/i] could be counted right through a break in a song and that was how they all started together after the break. What a revelation. Counting 1, 2, 3, 4 goes through the whole song and nearly everything started on the 1. I played the same bit of that record a dozen times just counting through the break. A eureka moment.

This guy has to know what his weakness is and has to be working very hard to fix it. He has to be made aware that he's currently compromising the band, and he's going to look stupid in front of all his mates. Then tell him he has 3 weeks to shape up or that's it. If the penny drops you're good to go, if it doesn't and he walks or is fired you're also good.

This problem is a show stopper. Cancel the gig until it's solved.

[tinyd]

[quote name='JimBobTTD' timestamp='1496118452' post='3308856']
I have counted with him (1-2-3-4; 1-2-3-4) and he is mostly ok with it. I think he understands them but has a bit of anti-elitism in him that makes him reject music theory.
[/quote]

If he thinks that being able to count up to 4 is "elitist" then I wouldn't hold out too much hope for him Joking aside, I think that he needs to really focus on this stuff - as @chris_b says, this should be treated as a show stopper.

[BobVbass]

Get a new singer