ead Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 [quote name='mr zed' timestamp='1496340951' post='3310736'] Oohh....well played sir! I like that explanation. Unfortunately I was adding tension for the whole of the first verse! [/quote] That is quite a lot of tension in all honesty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Steve Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 [quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1496343249' post='3310756'] If a singer starts in the wrong key, the band should go with him/her. The end result is what counts. Related to this, what are peoples' views on the "right/wrong" key in which to play a song? I've known some insist it has to be as the original. Surely the singer's ability/range has to be the deciding factor. Yet I've encountered people who don't feel this way. In the last band I played in, the guitarist made a big fuss because our singer wanted to sing Grapevine in B (the original is in Eb, but our singer's voice is considerably lower than Marvin's was). Seems mad to try to force someone to struggle with and mess up a song, rather than pitch it where it is most comfortable for them. [/quote] I disagree with your first statement - the singer needs to get back in tune because the rest of the band trying to work out what's happening and switching key mid tune just makes a complete mess (and some band members may not be up to transposing the song on the fly). Of course, that's not to say that the singer can get back in tune so this may not solve the problem... For changing the key of originals, I agree that it needs to work most for the singer, and i can't see why anybody would be very precious about it unless there are playing issues that can't be got round like open strings needed in chords (although, capos...). let's be honest, the chances of anybody in the audience having perfect pitch and being upset because they can hear that the tune is in a different key is simply not worth worrying about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamWoodBass Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 [quote name='mr zed' timestamp='1496340951' post='3310736'] Oohh....well played sir! I like that explanation. Unfortunately I was adding tension for the whole of the first verse! [/quote] If Miles Davis could get away with it so can you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@23 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 [quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1496343249' post='3310756'] Seems mad to try to force someone to struggle with and mess up a song, rather than pitch it where it is most comfortable for them. [/quote] That's the funny thing about guitarists! So many spend time learning how to tear through a minor pentatonic, but can't work with a capo and panic over changing keys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjim Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Why only a few weeks ago......we have three different singers that we use so some tunes are in different keys depending on singer that eve. I (being a bass player and therefore well learned and rehearsed ect ) have learned all required tunes in all keys required using just a 4 string and de-tuning my bottom E to D or Eb and basically knowing my sh*t. Our keys player being lazy prefers to use the transpose button. On the gig, last number of a full on great 1st set with whole full house (pub) loving it. We can do no wrong. Start playing. Hang on its all wrong. Stop the tune as we are but a few bars in. Laugh it off. Get the pub to chant "(keyboard players name) is in the wrong key!" "What keys this in?" he says in a panic. "Its in F minor for this singer" I tell him. "err....so is that as in relative minor of A or the minor of the second degree?" he asks. "why are you asking me this sh*t now?" .......more chanting from the crowd who are enjoying his embarrassment. After a minute or two of button pressing and "I swear I had this all set up just like last time we did this tune with X" we are all good and off we go... Morale here ...learn the tune in the key you are playing in with out cheating. De-tuning an entire guitar or bass acceptable exceptions but only if its open string dependant. Thats what I think anyway!! On the Van Halen thing..... I read somewhere they de-tuned guitars a semi tone to accommodate Roths voice which they hated doing as it "made the strings go floppy." Could be on that one the wrong "de-tuned" or other wise tuning was handed to Mr Halen? I wouldn't know but its a great example of it can happen to anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.G.E.N.T.E. Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 The other day at reharsal the guitar player was in the wrong key, but whe where all looking to each other to find out who was messing. I confess for a moment i thought that was me Speaking of wrong key ... this video allways comes to my mind. live tv subnday morning at the church.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NA9Qb28ZS8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) It happens to the best of them. This must be one of the coolest recoveries ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmlYz7db-gE Edited June 2, 2017 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I'm currently in two bands, and at one time 'I Wish' was on the set list of both. The key was E for one band and E[sup]b[/sup] for the other. Talk about a recipe for disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I used to play in a duo with a singer guitarist who used lots of altered tunings. He was also a massive stoner an would often forget to either bring or use his tuner, so he would just tune his guitar to itself for each new song, with the result that by 4 songs into a set his A was not even remotely the same as my A. I dealt with it by playing a fretless bass until I got fed up with his inability to even concede that it was a problem and quit after a particularly disastrous gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 [quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1496404355' post='3311114'] It happens to the best of them. This must be one of the coolest recoveries ever. ... [/quote] ... and kudos for the keys, giving him a lick ending on the note he's to start on. [i]Real [/i]musicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 [quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1496219064' post='3309574'] not quite the same thing, but my last band were getting a bit frustrated at the singer insisting that we de-tune the guitars by two steps to make it easier for him to hit the notes, and on a five string bass the strings were just flapping about and the guitars didn't have quite the zing they wanted from being at concert pitch. So one week we all tuned up a semi tone, and didn't tell him. Three hours of the singer looking slightly puzzled - he knew something was wrong but couldn't quite put his finger on what it was. he never worked it out, and we never went back. [/quote] I'm just curious. I can maybe understand the guitarists tuning down, so they can keep the same shape of chord. It would really cause me problems though, tuning my bass down. I'd be mentally transposing the line, so would end up making a complete mess of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 [quote name='SICbass' timestamp='1496206712' post='3309497'] I heard that they'd gone out on tour without a keyboard player and all the keys were on a sequencer. I don't know if there was a power failure or what, but somehow the sequencer reset itself to the wrong sample rate (i.e. 'in the cracks' tuningwise). Being as the entire intro is on keys and they were less than a semitone out of tune, no one noticed until the band kicked in, by which time it was too late. You could hardly stop the song and start again on what was probably the last encore. I can only presume that Dave Lee Roth had mostly keys in his in-ears as he seems relatively unphased. Poor old EVH's deperate efforts during the solo make my teeth itch. I feel sorry for the bloke, although I'm sure that after the gig they had a few beers and a laugh over it.......... perhaps after sacking the sequencer tech? [/quote] Comparing it with the recorded version, the guitar does appear to be tuned correctly with the sequencer being out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Steve Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1496409526' post='3311208'] I'm just curious. I can maybe understand the guitarists tuning down, so they can keep the same shape of chord. It would really cause me problems though, tuning my bass down. I'd be mentally transposing the line, so would end up making a complete mess of it. [/quote] No, if everybody tunes down then you're all playing the same notes on the same frets. It was all originals so there was no transposing for any other versions involved. It's not like we learned something in E and then decided to play it in D through detuning or transposing, we wrote/learned it in D, albeit that we were playing what would be an E at concert pitch. We even referred to the names of the frets rather than the names of the actual notes if that make's sense - we'd say we were playing an E even though we were actually playing a D. And when we tuned up half a step we carried on playing exactly the same thing, it just happened to now be a D# rather than a D and still looked like/we still called it an E. the rest of the band were all in established extreme metal bands (this one wasn't) and it seems to be standard practice in that field, which seems odd to me that they will all de-tune a six string to a D, or B or lower, rather than all just buying 7 string guitars. That said, I've been in other bands that have de-tuned a semi tone for the benefit of the singist, that it's easier for them to hit the notes...I genuinely can't understand this - surely they can hit all the notes in the scale so why is it easier to sing a song originally in E in D# when the next song might be originally in F which is now E? I get why one particular song might be easier in a different key, but all of them? That makes no sense. But apparently it's a thing. Edited June 2, 2017 by Monkey Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjim Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 [quote name='Rich' timestamp='1496404441' post='3311115'] I'm currently in two bands, and at one time 'I Wish' was on the set list of both. The key was E for one band and E[sup]b[/sup] for the other. Talk about a recipe for disaster. [/quote] Ive got this in E ,Eb and Db. and that's just for a start. My fav is Db. This and about 10-12 tunes that I also have to know in three different keys. Its an interesting weekend when we get a three nighter and a different singer on each! Keeps doing the same set each night interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leschirons Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I tend not to get keys confused. However, put My girl and Stand by me on the same set list, and I will get the two mixed up. First, I get the "look" then, it's the hilarious vocalist scramble for the other words. I've done this maybe 30 times😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 [quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1496164909' post='3309284'] I know of a bass player who tuned his G string a semitone out, just the G string...he played a song which used the 4th and 2nd frets of the G string a lot (as well as the other strings) and didn't even realise it was out of tune...got this story from his guitarist [/quote] I use a Hipshot D-tuner thingy in a few of my basses. Sometimes I forget to reset the lever after a song that required the drop-D tuning, and sometimes it's taken a couple of seconds to realise it was me who was causing the cacophony. Not good, especially with songs that start with the bass on its own Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barneyg42 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 [quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1496331307' post='3310615'] Just remembered (which is more than I did at the time) the joys of flicking a D-tuner down for a song...and then forgetting to flick it back up again for the next one... [/quote] When dear old Rick Parfitt passed away we went through 5-6 gigs doing a couple of Quo songs including Whatever You Want. Our guitarist would drop his bottom E to D for that intro which ends on the bottom D. Happily go through the song and of course the first few times he forgot to retune! Cue lots of looking around at each other in the next song wondering who was out!!! By the time he got it sussed we dropped the song anyway!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) Once you've learned a tune in one key it can be difficult to un-learn it. A band I was in played a tune for years in one key until the singer decided it wasn't her key. So we tried several different keys during a rehearsal and settled on a new key. Come the gig I launched into the bass solo forgetting we've changed key, obviously all sounds good, keys come in on new key, sounds terrible, he realises what's happened and changes key, then repeat again with guitarist. Drummer is giving everyone the death stare. Singer comes in on key and sings whole song perfectly for the first time ever. . Edited June 5, 2017 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1496431043' post='3311459'] I use a Hipshot D-tuner thingy in a few of my basses. Sometimes I forget to reset the lever after a song that required the drop-D tuning [/quote] Avoiding such messing around is one of the reasons I play a 5 string. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1496166484' post='3309299'] At least you were able to correct yourself. Unlike Van Halen. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjx_GjyXCs4[/media] [/quote] I think that's better than the cee loo green bass cockup at coachella a few years ago Edited June 5, 2017 by markstuk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1496654666' post='3312924'] Avoiding such messing around is one of the reasons I play a 5 string. [/quote] but sometimes (many examples) you really want to take advantage of an open D... so I'd even detune to D on a 5 string. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamWoodBass Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1496664816' post='3313037'] but sometimes (many examples) you really want to take advantage of an open D... so I'd even detune to D on a 5 string. [/quote] Agreed, some Tool basslines would be very difficult without the open D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mep Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1496165121' post='3309285'] you and me both, and I can't hear the guitarist very well, ear plugs and all that, so it can take me a while to realise anything's wrong [/quote] I have joined that club too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbass Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 How about this then? Local (mature) band I'm doing a couple of outdoor events with this summer have a funny little habit of changing keys on the fly depending on how the singers voice is...eh? I cant understand it and even they dont seem to realise what they are up to...its very funny has me in stitches but they cant see why I'm laughing..has to be the weirdest thing I think I've ever done. Huge fun though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1496653355' post='3312905'] Once you've learned a tune in one key it can be difficult to un-learn it. [/quote] Stay away from 'Mack The Knife'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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