Leonard Smalls Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Just wondering if anyone's had experience of column/sub all-in-one PAs like this one? http://www.djkit.com/ld-systems/ld-systems-maui-44.html?gclid=CPSi9aHPmdQCFUg6GwodwKELag I'm looking into options for our local community centre which will be a one-PA-fits-all solution that can be moved easily - the hall is max size 700 capacity and that can be split into 150 capacity sections for smaller events. It has to work equally well for metal and folk, and the directionality of these sort-of line arrays would definitely be a Good Thing as the cieling is very high, and as a result the room is quite echoey... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 I'm afraid if you want to do a metal gig (or any moderate-to-loud band show) in a 700 cap room, something like that is unlikely to satisfy. They don't really function like a "proper" line array system you see at big shows. Those systems are designed carefully to suit each venue, with the position and angle of each box carefully selected to ensure an even coverage across the audience and to avoid firing at reflective surfaces etc. These little column systems aren't doing anything that clever. Based on what I've heard them do, I wouldn't use them for anything bigger than a small acoustic ensemble really. They'll do that just fine, but unlikely to have the headroom to do a loud rock band even in your venue's 150 cap configuration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Hi Leonard, I have no experience of that particular set up, so this is all from general principles, but with no-one else yet commenting I hope this might help until someone with more knowledge comes along. There are some advantages in this sort of system, easy set up being one which may suit your needs. The other is control of dispersion that the line source offers. Really useful in an echoey building with lots of hard surfaces. I also like moving the crossover point out of the mid-range, which I think improves vocal sound. The downsides are a lack of volume and the expense. For the cost of a single speaker system like these you could afford four reasonable quality conventional speakers or buy a pair of something market leading and have some change for a decent mixer and a set of mics. I'd agree with Mike on the volume issue too. They are advertising 121dB continuous and 129dB peak. The 121dB figure is probably more honest than many ad claims but how they justify the 8dB extra peak is a bit odd. 6dB peaks are the normal permissible manufacturers guff. 121dB won't be enough for a metal band in a 700 seat venue but would probably do the 150seat venue if you buy a pair. That's £3,900 though! With that sort of budget I'd be looking at the RCF ART735, a pair of these will do everything you need in all probability. I don't think you'd need subs at all so just two boxes and no more difficult to set up than the LD's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 Thanks for that! I'm actually leaning more toward a pair of JBL prx425s with 2x 15" subs, plus 3 Behringer iNuke6000 amps (that's a potential 2x9kW rms!), with Behringer wireless mixer... Just got to convince the committee they need to spend just over £5k! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) Just to echo the above... unless you are prepared to fork out K-Array money (which given your budget indicated by your speaker choices), I would stay clear. Two reasons: you can get better performance out of traditional boxes... and the coverage is greater too (those portable line arrays tend to be very directional in comparison - which can be your advantage, or disadvantage depending upon the room that you are in - but without knowing more about your room, I can't comment much further). What I will say though, given what you are saying, it sounds like it could be a challenging room, so knowing how to tune the PA to you room is an essential task to learn. 2x RCF 745, 2x RCF 8003 and XR18 for a similar budget as your JBL/Behringer combo, will eat the JBL in terms of volume, vocal clarity and bass. Yes, eat your heart out all those haters that get sick of seeing the numbers 7 4 and 5 - but that box, (and the 735) is unique in the fact that they are lightweight boxes with such a high quality HF horn that is normally the reserve of cabs three times the price. RE: Requirements for sub, depends on how packed your room gets. If you put subs into a reflective, empty room, you are going to get a load of mud. If your room is full of people, you are going to get a lot of that low energy absorbed... so sub reinforcement will be required. The 735s or 745s on their own will be perfect for acoustic acts etc... but a room for 700 is a big ask for such a small PA - but again, it depends if you need the sound to be likened to that of a gig or that where you just need coverage on a dance floor. Also, remember that volume is measured in dB, not Watts... so just because you have amps capable of putting out a lot of Watts, it doesn't mean anything if it can't be converted to usable volume at the speaker. Edited June 5, 2017 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Line arrays shouldn't be all that directional, that's the big point about them, surely? The ones in the link ^ say 120 degrees horizontal dispersion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Check the bottom of this page out - https://www.audiolinks.com/blog/line-array-vs-point-source-pa-systems-which-is-ideal-for-you/ and here - http://pro.harman.com/insights/enterprise/hospitality/house-of-worship/point-source-line-arrays-or-column-speakers-whats-best-for-your-church/ Remember, when you go and see gigs with curved arrays, they are BIG rooms... now go to a gig at a hall... likelihood is that they will be using stacked point source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) The similar Bose systems I have experience of are fine for what they were designed for i.e. maybe a singer guitarist with backing tracks. They are lightweight and portable. I'd not recommend the likes for a PA in a large hall with a high ceiling. If it is to be easily moved then look at at the recommendations here on the many BC posts which will include RCT, QSC, etc. Folks tend to quite rightly recommend the kit they've had positive results with. In my case it's Yamaha and EV which I use at a smaller community centre, (capacity 200 max).. There is some great kit out there and it's a big decision so do your research. I would also think about acoustic treatment for the venue. My experience is it's money well spent. This might include surface treatments etc. to reduce reverberation level. Speaking occasions should be given special consideration. There's nothing worse than listening in a room with a poor PA and poor acoustics. And some folks will be partially deaf so you might want to consider a loop. Professional advice might be worthwhile, good luck. Edited June 5, 2017 by grandad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjim Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Had experience with a singer that turned up to several gigs with this for keys and vox because it was "less hassle" than bringing a traditional PA. What we found using it in this capacity.. It surrounds and washes the entire backline area with what ever is in it. Its bloody annoying unless you are the person going through it. Created a volume problem that didn't occur using a trad set up.We got to about gig no 6 with it and called time on it. However for a solo/duo or DJ its great. Couldn't tell you what a multiple set up would be like. Perhaps others have had more success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Hi again Leonard, just to say I'd definitely go with an active speaker nowadays. The advantages are threefold at least, the amps match the speakers and have computers on board (DSP) which will make sure the speakers can't be overloaded no matter what the operator does, a big factor in community use where any idiot can end up at the controls. Having active systems mean fewer leads to confuse people not used to pro PA and at the end of the day they are quick to knock down and everyone gets home that little bit quicker. Going for the bigger RCF speakers means you won't need bass bins, again more appropriate for use by a wide range of potentially inexperienced users. I like the Yamaha's and the EV's too and JBL do good active speakers as well but I've done a comparative test and the RCF's and QSC's someone mentioned are just a little better at the moment. I'd happily use the Yamaha's or EV's if I couldn't quite stretch to the RCF's. Yamaha reliability is legendary and I've used the old passive stuff for years. With the Behringer mixers you suggest they are excellent, but again think about who would have to operate them. Will they be able to navigate the menu systems and take advantage of all the extra facilities if they are unfamiliar with this sort of electronics? A fairly simple analogue mixer is a bit more intuitive even if the simplicity is a bit limiting. Not a complete no no but worth thinking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 The words 'community centre' sound warning bells - good luck with the committee - one of them is bound to have a relative who knows a bloke that can chuck something in for a few hundred quid(!). Been there, done it, offers invited for a dozen or so torn (but clean) t shirts........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1496658316' post='3312960'] Line arrays shouldn't be all that directional, that's the big point about them, surely? The ones in the link ^ say 120 degrees horizontal dispersion... [/quote] I was interested in the vertical dispersion - that would hopefully reduce reflections off the hard wooden ceiling... However, it might be possible to convince them to utilise the local "man shed" for retired chaps to make some dangle absorbing devices. As for Mr. Hobbit's comment about committees - I know... I've been on the receiving end of grief from some before; I once booked Wilko Johnson to play at a local hall (different from this one!). Someone from the comm decided it was a good idea to chain shut the cupboards in the kitchen so those nasty rock'n'roll types didn't damage the crockery and attack folks with the cutlery! I've also discovered that the committee has decided £3500plus VAT should be more than enough, as someone's mate specced a Yamaha DXR10 system at that price; I've pointed out that it would run out of steam very quickly in the main hall... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 [quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1496676426' post='3313133'] I've also discovered that the committee has decided £3500plus VAT should be more than enough, as someone's mate specced a Yamaha DXR10 system at that price; I've pointed out that it would run out of steam very quickly in the main hall... [/quote] Just two DXR10s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I've also discovered that the committee has decided £3500plus VAT should be more than enough, as someone's mate specced a Yamaha DXR10 system at that price; I've pointed out that it would run out of steam very quickly in the main hall... "[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Aah the memories come flooding back - nothing changes........[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1496678539' post='3313163'] Just two DXR10s? [/quote] There were 2 subs as well.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 I'm assuming stands, mic's and leads should be included in that? Any monitors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) I gig regularly in a 4-piece country band using a Bose L1 Model II for just the vocals and a smidge of acoustic guitar (which mainly comes through a TE acoustic combo). Drums, electric guitar and bass take care of themselves. The venues we play are usually village halls and social clubs, and the Bose works fine in this application. I ahve the Tone Match mixer, but I have had to add another small mixer to make sure we can cope with 4 vocals, acoustic guitar, iPod for breaks, and sometimes an announcer's mic. The whole thing weighs only 50kg, and fits in my (admittedly huge) boot along with my bass rig. If you do go this route, be sure not to skimp on the subs, as their SPL falls off a lot more quickly than that of the line array, meaning the sound can become shrill at the back of the room, especially at higher volumes. The drummer keeps wanting to put his bass drum through it too, but I have politely but firmly declined on the grounds that (1) this would be pushing the system well beyond its design brief, (2) it would take away headroom from the all-important vocals, and (3) volume wars would ensue. Here's a couple of pics of the Bose in action with the band. EDIT: Note the position of the line array, at one side of the stage and firing towards the diagonally opposite corner of the room. IME this gives maximum coverage with minimum risk of feedback. Edited June 5, 2017 by JapanAxe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 I bet that HH combo weighs more than the p.a.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyguts Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 I dep for a band that uses an LD system. It sounds ok to me, but I have noticed that happy punters think they can lean on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 [quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1496216742' post='3309548'] Just wondering if anyone's had experience of column/sub all-in-one PAs like this one? [url="http://www.djkit.com/ld-systems/ld-systems-maui-44.html?gclid=CPSi9aHPmdQCFUg6GwodwKELag"]http://www.djkit.com...CFUg6GwodwKELag[/url] I'm looking into options for our local community centre which will be a one-PA-fits-all solution that can be moved easily - the hall is max size 700 capacity and that can be split into 150 capacity sections for smaller events. It has to work equally well for metal and folk, and the directionality of these sort-of line arrays would definitely be a Good Thing as the cieling is very high, and as a result the room is quite echoey... [/quote] I've heard a similar system being used at our local folk and acoustic night. Smaller venue, the function room of the Vernon Arms, Spondon, with low ceilings and lots of reflective room structure. Might seat 150. The band had an EUB. It worked well. Metal? Not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 [quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1496676426' post='3313133'] ..it might be possible to convince them to utilise the local "man shed" for retired chaps to make some dangle absorbing devices... [/quote] Come again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 [quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1496721479' post='3313399'] Come again? [/quote] Note to self: Must read before posting! I meant sound absorbing thingummies dangling from the ceiling! I've left the committee to it for the moment... They seem to think that monitors aren't necessary (!), but I did convince them of the need for mics... The problem is they've spent more than £10k on a ridiculous electric screen that can divide the hall, but no-one is allowed to use it in case it gets broken. You couldn't make it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I've been here - there are times when it's far safer to walk away, any small thing that goes wrong will be totally your fault............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurksalot Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 [quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1496735342' post='3313446'] Note to self: Must read before posting! I meant sound absorbing thingummies dangling from the ceiling! I've left the committee to it for the moment... They seem to think that monitors aren't necessary (!), but I did convince them of the need for mics... The problem is they've spent more than £10k on a ridiculous electric screen that can divide the hall, but no-one is allowed to use it in case it gets broken. You couldn't make it up! [/quote] Maybe but do you remember the metalwork shop with Mr Bruce , he had a brand new top dollar milling machine that only the A-level students could use ...... they never ever offered A-level in his subjects , it probably just rusted itself solid , same meat different gravy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I played with a keyboard player who use a Bose L1 with 2 bass units. He sounded very good. . . [i]but[/i] there was one problem. . . . in rooms with a low ceiling, where he couldn't put up both parts to the pole, he had to pack it away and go through the PA because running with fewer speakers put the impedance out and caused problems to the amp. There was no way around it. IMO a bit of a design flaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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