Doing gigs without rehearsal

[project_c]

I play a monthly jazz gig in a bar with a group of people who can't be bothered to rehearse, they just want to do the gigs. We have maybe 1 rehearsal every couple of months, where we run through the same 15 songs, and don't really practice properly as a group, we just run through the set and go home. So of course the band sounds sloppy.

Reasons for not rehearsing are that everyone is busy with work, we all live miles away from each other and they don't like paying for expensive rehearsal spaces in the areas we can all get to (i.e. central London).

So do I stay with this band? It can be fun, and we all get on, but if the band sounds crap in front of an audience (which it often does) I want nothing to do with it. Or is it unreasonable to expect everyone to commit to regular practice?

[Monkey Steve]

Maybe it's a jazz thing - I was once in a band, playing rock originals but with a guitarist who loved jazz, and once we knew the songs he refused to rehearse them because he wanted to retain the element of "jazz spontaneity" that comes from only knowing the bones of the song and thus forcing him to improvise on the spot when we played live. me and the drummer took another view and that was the end of that band...

It wouldn't be for me (and not just because it's jazz) - I hate the idea of playing live until the band knows the songs inside out. IMHO playing live is about impressing and entertaining a crowd (and not for comedic reasons) Sounds to me like your lot are playing for their own amusement - how is it you keep getting the gig? Has it not inspired anybody in the audience to approach the venue and suggest that they could do it better?

And I'd take issue with the cost of rehearsal studios in London - if there are three or four of you (or more) then you can easily find somewhere that'll cost less than a tenner each for three or four hours (check Storm in Holloway) which isn't much of a weekly investment, and even cheaper if it's fortnightly.

Do they know this is what you're thinking? I'd suggest sitting down with all of them and having a chat - it would be a shame to jack in the band if you enjoy most of it without giving them the chance to sort out the bits you don't enjoy. They may agree that they do need to improve, or want to get better just so that you don't leave. Or you'll find that actually they just see it as a bit of fun once a month and even though they're not great they don't want to give up every Tuesday night to improve (or they think they're great, what do you mean they're rubbish? etc). But you'll at least be able to tell them where you stand and find out if it's worth sticking around, and you get to sort it out like adults rather than letting it fester to the point where you sort it out like spoilt children and break friendships.

[Number6]

Expensive rehearsals.....hmmmm.....We use Storm studios in Holloway Road. £45 for 3 hours which is hardly going to break the bank when divvied up between the band.

[project_c]

I know, there are plenty of rehearsal rooms which are reasonable, I played in one the other day that was £8 an hour, so I also think it's a poor excuse.

I think the problem is that they see gigs as a fun night out, and they see rehearsals as a chore because we have use that time to iron out all the problem bits.

Also the 'jazz spontaneity' thing is great, but 1. it only works if you really do know the tunes inside out, and 2. you can navigate though them without getting lost, and 3. you are able to interact with the rest of the band rather than just bash out a solo and sit down. For me jazz is good when the band is connected, otherwise it's just a bunch of unrelated solos. And generally that connection comes from playing together a lot and getting to know each other.

It's definitely an issue, I keep dropping hints but it's not working so I think I'll need to be a bit more firm with them.

[stingrayPete1977]

Jazz and audience in the same paragraph?

[Number6]

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1496236198' post='3309777']
I know, there are plenty of rehearsal rooms which are reasonable, I played in one the other day that was £8 an hour, so I also think it's a poor excuse.

I think the problem is that they see gigs as a fun night out, and they see rehearsals as a chore because we have use that time to iron out all the problem bits.

Also the 'jazz spontaneity' thing is great, but 1. it only works if you really do know the tunes inside out, and 2. you can navigate though them without getting lost, and 3. you are able to interact with the rest of the band rather than just bash out a solo and sit down. For me jazz is good when the band is connected, otherwise it's just a bunch of unrelated solos. And generally that connection comes from playing together a lot and getting to know each other.

It's definitely an issue, I keep dropping hints but it's not working so I think I'll need to be a bit more firm with them.
[/quote]

Rehearsals is where the band should be aquainting themselves with all the foibles of the other musicians.....

[vantagepointrocks]

If you do enjoy the music, the gigs and like the people in the band, then I’d see the rather limited time it takes out of your schedule as a chance to join another band. Hopefully if you could find one that is up for regular rehearsals then you would be able to have the best of both worlds.

[Sibob]

If it's a monthly gig (i.e. consistent) why is a small set of 15 songs sloppy? Is no-one retaining arrangements, endings etc?
I kinda agree that getting together to rehearse the same 15 songs is pointless, if it's sloppy then it's probably for another reason......
If the set was constantly changing, arrangements changing, etc etc, then yeah, rehearse all that stuff obviously.....but I can't abide rehearsing for the sake of it when people should simply be able to retain the same set (in their head) month on month.

Si

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1496232035' post='3309720']
I play a monthly jazz gig in a bar with a group of people who can't be bothered to rehearse, they just want to do the gigs. We have maybe 1 rehearsal every couple of months, where we run through the same 15 songs, and don't really practice properly as a group, we just run through the set and go home. So of course the band sounds sloppy.

Reasons for not rehearsing are that everyone is busy with work, we all live miles away from each other and they don't like paying for expensive rehearsal spaces in the areas we can all get to (i.e. central London).

So do I stay with this band? It can be fun, and we all get on, but if the band sounds crap in front of an audience (which it often does) I want nothing to do with it. Or is it unreasonable to expect everyone to commit to regular practice?
[/quote]

If you dont like the way the band is being run, you need ot leave. no matter what others say, its you that has the issue so only you can decided what to do.
Personally ive never wanted to rehearse regularly once the band has start gigging. On the other hand my last band rehearsed a lot because the guitarist was still learning the songs ad didnt feel confident. This would mean the rest of us giving up more time and money that we felt we didn't want to keep doing......and still we fell apart on a few occasions due to the guitarist forgetting things.

[Monkey Steve]

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1496236198' post='3309777']
I know, there are plenty of rehearsal rooms which are reasonable, I played in one the other day that was £8 an hour, so I also think it's a poor excuse.

I think the problem is that they see gigs as a fun night out, and they see rehearsals as a chore because we have use that time to iron out all the problem bits.

Also the 'jazz spontaneity' thing is great, but 1. it only works if you really do know the tunes inside out, and 2. you can navigate though them without getting lost, and 3. you are able to interact with the rest of the band rather than just bash out a solo and sit down. For me jazz is good when the band is connected, otherwise it's just a bunch of unrelated solos. And generally that connection comes from playing together a lot and getting to know each other.

It's definitely an issue, I keep dropping hints but it's not working so I think I'll need to be a bit more firm with them.
[/quote]

I have been in bands with certain members who didn't like rehearsing. As a rule of thumb they generally:

1. massively over-estimated their own abilities (Dunning-Kruger and all that) - they don't need to rehearse because they're great;
2. massively under-estimate how poorly the band are received - it's jazz, what are a few bum notes if everybody's enjoying themselves? In fairness this can be a difference in perception between you and the rest of the band - they may be getting feedback from the punters that they don't care if you stuffed up the set (which was certainly true in an old punk band of mine - as long as you hit the choruses on time and in tune nobody cared if anybody made a mess of the riffs under the verse or played the solos out of tune).

To those arguing that a gigging band shouldn't need to rehearse the same songs over and over again, I'd refer you back to the OP where he's explaining that the problem is that they can't play the set properly to begin with. How can practicing the songs possibly make the situation worse?

[hubrad]

Talk to them.
Also perhaps make a recording of a live set, so all can listen and comment accordingly.
If it's still doing your head in then move on or take on another project.

[FinnDave]

[quote name='Number6' timestamp='1496237714' post='3309802']
Rehearsals is where the band should be aquainting themselves with all the foibles of the other musicians.....
[/quote]

Anyone who tries acquainting themselves with my foibles without buying me a drink first is likely to get a slap around the head!

Edited May 31, 2017 by FinnDave

[SubsonicSimpleton]

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1496236198' post='3309777']
I know, there are plenty of rehearsal rooms which are reasonable, I played in one the other day that was £8 an hour, so I also think it's a poor excuse.

I think the problem is that they see gigs as a fun night out, and they see rehearsals as a chore because we have use that time to iron out all the problem bits.

Also the 'jazz spontaneity' thing is great, but 1. it only works if you really do know the tunes inside out, and 2. you can navigate though them without getting lost, and 3. you are able to interact with the rest of the band rather than just bash out a solo and sit down. For me jazz is good when the band is connected, otherwise it's just a bunch of unrelated solos. And generally that connection comes from playing together a lot and getting to know each other.

It's definitely an issue, I keep dropping hints but it's not working so I think I'll need to be a bit more firm with them.
[/quote]
I would suggest that it might be more productive to accept their lack of motivation as being their problem, and simply focus on improving what you bring to the party - for example when it comes to not getting lost in the form, do you know the form inside out, and can you spell out the changes in a musically obvious way, can you quote a little bit of the melody to help people get back on track etc?

If you do some networking, you might find opportunities to play with better musicians, but you might well find that they are too busy gigging/teaching to spend a lot of time rehearsing, so what you can bring to the bandstand without a lot of rehearsal is really important.

[project_c]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1496239344' post='3309818']


I have been in bands with certain members who didn't like rehearsing. As a rule of thumb they generally:

1. massively over-estimated their own abilities (Dunning-Kruger and all that) - they don't need to rehearse because they're great;
2. massively under-estimate how poorly the band are received - it's jazz, what are a few bum notes if everybody's enjoying themselves? In fairness this can be a difference in perception between you and the rest of the band - they may be getting feedback from the punters that they don't care if you stuffed up the set (which was certainly true in an old punk band of mine - as long as you hit the choruses on time and in tune nobody cared if anybody made a mess of the riffs under the verse or played the solos out of tune).

To those arguing that a gigging band shouldn't need to rehearse the same songs over and over again, I'd refer you back to the OP where he's explaining that the problem is that they can't play the set properly to begin with. How can practicing the songs possibly make the situation worse?
[/quote]

Yeah, all of this. The band sounds ok, especially after a few drinks, but generally various members (not me) lose their place, get sketchy with their timing and sound messy. And the 15 song set list is only as it is, because it's really hard to convince them to learn anything new to add to the list, especially as that would require more rehearsals. So it's the same songs over and over again, played not very well for the most part. Im not saying the gigs aren't fun, but I think the band sounds shabby.

On top of this we have a gig booked somewhere new and a bit more 'proper' in August (nothing fancy, but not just a bar full of random posh drunk people), and already people are saying they can only make one rehearsal tops beforehand. I'm tempted to say i'm pulling out unless we are properly rehearsed.

[Marc S]

[quote name='hubrad' timestamp='1496239514' post='3309821']
Talk to them.
Also perhaps make a recording of a live set, so all can listen and comment accordingly.
If it's still doing your head in then move on or take on another project.
[/quote]

+1 for this answer

I've been in bands where some people don't want to rehearse, and it usually annoys those who do want to rehearse....
Rehearsal always helps tighten the band up, and helps improve the dynamics. Repetition helps with learning, however, I can understand those who don't want to rehearse too often. Sometimes over rehearsing means some people can get bored of over-playing songs. But once you're tighter, I'd use those rehearsals to suggest new material, and try varying the set a bit....

You say that you all get on well, and it's a shame to leave a band where this is the case - but you are obviously frustrated by others' lack of commitment to rehearse..... and that isn't going to go away or get better by itself....

[ambient]

Are you playing real book standards?

I don't see why you'd rehearse those tbh. It's improvised, so the idea is that they're not played the same each time anyway.

I play a whole lot of that stuff, if there's anything unfamiliar on the set list then I run through it a few times at home. This is what I suggest your guys do too.

Edited May 31, 2017 by ambient

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='Marc S' timestamp='1496242228' post='3309854']
Sometimes over rehearsing means some people can get bored of over-playing songs. But once you're tighter, I'd use those rehearsals to suggest new material, and try varying the set a bit.
[/quote]

It's a good point. Rehearsal helps you to tighten up as a band, even if you're not playing the same songs that you're planning to play at gigs.

S.P.

[jrixn1]

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1496241267' post='3309841']
generally various members (not me) lose their place, get sketchy with their timing and sound messy. And the 15 song set list is only as it is, because it's really hard to convince them to learn anything new to add to the list, especially as that would require more rehearsals.
[/quote]

I don't think you need more group rehearsals - I think you need fewer!

What I mean is: if people are continually getting lost in standards, or can't keep consistent time, they must do some individual practice. It is a waste of time to have a group rehearsal otherwise - particularly for you, if you are the strongest member of the group.

They could use tools like iReal Pro (or Band-in-a-Box, Aebersold tapes, etc).

Do you guys go to jam sessions (individually)? Playing with unknowns/randoms is a really great way to learn how to truly listen to, react to, and interact with other musicians.

What is your set of 15 songs, out of interest?

[peteb]

So you're playing the same set with a limited repertoire in a genre that is based on an improvisational format where presumably you will never play a song the same twice and you want to rehearse weekly to play one gig a month??

I'm afraid that I'm with your bandmates on the one...

[Monkey Steve]

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1496236198' post='3309777']
It's definitely an issue, I keep dropping hints but it's not working so I think I'll need to be a bit more firm with them.
[/quote]

Also, this.. In my experience "dropping hints" very rarely works, especially if you want them to do something that they clearly don't really fancy. They probably think that it's something funny you always say after a gig about needing to practice more (ha ha, because he thinks we're terrible, what a joker, he's never happy, etc) and they always ignore it because you never say any more about it afterwards to make the point that actually you're serious.

Keep coming back to it but the first step is telling them exactly what you think about the need to practice more in a way that makes them give you an answer, and take it from there depending on what their response is.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Monkey Steve

[Muzz]

We don't rehearse much in the function band (at all over the last few years), but that's just what works for us - we all know each other and every song inside out before we play it for the first time. Since we dropped down to a trio, though, there's been some reworking of the set and new songs, so we've actually had a couple of rehearsals recently.

The bottom line, though, is does the band sound good?

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1496232035' post='3309720']
So do I stay with this band? It can be fun, and we all get on, but if the band sounds crap in front of an audience (which it often does) I want nothing to do with it.
[/quote]

It clearly doesn't, so something needs to change, whether it's the rehearsal schedule or the band, I dunno...

Edited May 31, 2017 by Muzz

[la bam]

Nooooooooo!!

Itd be my idea of hell!

I like to know when we go out we are at our very best - then if it goes wrong on the night, at least we did all we could.

I actually like practicing and getting tight and bringing in dynamics etc and getting the confidence we are good and know our stuff.

I have total respect for anyone who can turn up unrehearsed and gig! I see it a lot in function bands etc - but i couldnt do it - id be a nervous wreck!

[Lozz196]

I wouldn`t gig without rehearsing, I don`t care how good any/all musicians are, in my opinion the same bunch of super-talented will always be better with regular rehearsing. Sure, if what is being played is to a decent enough standard then at that point there is the argument it`s not needed, but if the sound and performance isn`t where it should be that is the deciding factor. We regularly get remarked upon for how tight we are as a band, strange that, seeing as we rehearse every week irrespective of however many gigs we have (3 last weekend, still rehearsed yesterday).

[grandad]

How many players are there?

From my limited experience of playing in a jazz quartet for 18 months and on a few occasions with a larger orchestra, in a trio or quartet there's no place to hide and the rhythm section needs to be tight. With larger numbers of players individual errors are less noticeable.

I have found that many standards, once nailed, need no further rehearsal, they stay fixed in memory. Numbers having a more mutable nature need an agreed arrangement for the rhythm section to allow the 'vocal' instruments somewhere to return to.

With only 15 numbers, 2 or 3 rehearsals should have them all in the bag. I reckon we're up to about 60 numbers on our set-list and rehearse most weeks. We introduce a new number to learn most every other week and usually nail it after 2 or 3 practices unless it's a one of those numbers that never quite gets nailed good enough to do live.

It sounds to me as though your fellow musicians subscribe to the laissez-faire school of Jazz, which I have come across, whereby, whatever the outcome the performance is the Art. And that's OK so long as all involved know that.

Edited May 31, 2017 by grandad

[EliasMooseblaster]

There's definitely a balance to be struck between "too much" and "too little," and it sounds like they're definitely erring on the side of "too little"! Could they perhaps be persuaded to make this one rehearsal a bit longer before August's gig, just so you can at least run over the set a few times and iron out what sound like very obvious creases?

It does sound like you're finding the situation very frustrating - and is the limited repertoire not getting boring? I know that playing improvised jazz is often a bit of a tightrope walk, but if the band's fallen off the tightrope halfway through the first number then it's going to stop being fun pretty quickly.