Over the heads of punters... (or maybe under)

[NewDad]

Not long ago, I heard the bass player of a 60s cover band play a whole set with his A string tuned to Bb. It was gut-wrenching to hear (and Waterloo Sunset excruciating). I was about to tell him but realised no one else was noticing. The crowd was dancing, singing along and clapping. Not a furrowed brow in the house. I left it 'til the break.

Any similar observations?

[BrunoBass]

Punters don't care. They just want to drink, dance and sing along with their mates. They aren't interested in musical perfection because they're not really listening, any more than they're interested in what make of bass you're playing.

[Trueno]

With regard to bum notes, bad tuning, bad fretless intonation, they say that you are the first to notice... if it's a bit worse your bandmates notice... and if it's really bad the punters notice. It was apparent to you because you're a bass player yourself. I think the punters mostly listen to the vocalist... if they're listening at all (depends on the venue, I think).

[lowdown]

Why did you tell him ? Did the rest of the band have stick on ears as well ?
Just curious really.

[T-Bay]

I haven't been playing long and asked for tips when I first started playing from a guy who has years and years of experience. His reply was to make sure the beginning and end are perfectly in time, along with any whole group rests in the song and no one will notice what goes in the middle. I assumed he was joking and said as much, he replied that whilst it was a bit tongue in cheek it was generally true in most gigs and to prove it he purposefully played a few bum/ weird notes whilst nodding to me. The only one who noticed was the lead guitarist who was in on the conversation and just smiled every time - there were about 150 people in the room. No one else seemed to have a clue.

I think the majority of people only notice as far as if something sounds good or bad to them. So as long as it's mostly ok and sounds vaguely like the song they expect then they miss the mistakes/ problems. If it's perfect then they just see it as being 'better'. Since I started playing I have noticed some glaring things in songs I have listened for years without a clue, so obviously your ears become much more attuned to what should be happening.

If someone messes up the lyrics to a classic though it's a different matter and everyone notices then.

[NewDad]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1496404582' post='3311119']
Why did you tell him ? Did the rest of the band have stick on ears as well ?
Just curious really.

[/quote]

I was acquainted with a couple of the members. The rest of the band possibly didn't hear much bass: he was at the front of the stage with the cab close behind, blasting into his legs.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='T-Bay' timestamp='1496404600' post='3311120']
His reply was to make sure the beginning and end are perfectly in time, along with any whole group rests in the song and no one will notice what goes in the middle.
[/quote]

Troo, dat.

The vast majority of punters don't hear you or what you're playing.

They hear the music in their heads instead. The know how the song sounds, so that's what they hear. Unless you do something utterly catastrophic.

[Monkey Steve]

for a covers crowd, as long as the choruses are in tune you can basically play anything, nobody's listening to anything else.

An old punk covers band of mine, where i was playing lead guitar, used to get annoyed with me because I'd register every mistake and be grumpy that we'd stuffed something up (and I mean big, noticeable stuff, fluffed intros, missed cues, singing the chorus over the verse, messing up riffs - that sounds worse than it is, we weren't that bad but played a lot and you rack up a load of mistakes over time, especially at our enthusiastic amateurs level). they banned me from apologising on stage because nobody had ever complained or even mentioned the stuff we got wrong and correctly reasoned that what I notice as a musician who knows what everybody should have been playing isn't what a drunken crowd notice.

the last gig we ever did was as a favour for a mate who was showing a load of punk films as part of a film festival with us doing a set afterwards. Almost nobody came. Not helped by it being in a room above a pub that also had a band on that night. But the half dozen people that were there were dedicated punk fans.

We launch into Another Girl Another Planet and I have a complete brain fade. The song is far better known for the opening guitar solo than its chorus - it's been on loads of adverts over the years, a really epic, soaring 16 bars. To this day i can play it at the drop of a hat - in itself it's not very tricky. But that night I fluff the first note and just couldn't catch up - I cobble together something that's in the right key but it's nowhere close to the original, and the mate who's roadying for me, a very good lead guitarist who only knows me as a bass player from being in bands with him, is looking at me and shaking his head in a "you've let the band down, you've let the audience down, but most of all you've let yourself down" way.

We finish the set, and i go for a chat with the sparse crowd and organiser, and mention how badly I messed up the solo. Nobody noticed anything wrong. And not a polite "don't worry about it, it's was OK *we did notice but we're being nice about it*" but rather "really,? when was that? which bit did you get wrong? sounded fine to us, just like the original"

In summary, the audience are idiots and we deserve better. people who really notice when we f#ck up and hold us to account

[BigRedX]

It is my experience that unless the song comes to an awful grinding halt before you've reached the first chorus no-one in the audience will notice that anything is wrong.

I've played a whole gig with the guitarist tuned about 20 cents sharp compared with the bass because of a tuner problem, and the only person who spotted anything was the drummer who was behind both amps and could her how appealing it sounded and kept telling us to tune up. Of course our tuners told us that we were perfectly in tune (just not with each other). Absolutely no one the audience noticed anything and we even picked up a rave live review in the local music scene blog...

[CamdenRob]

How on earth can you not instantly notice that you have a string tuned to the wrong note?

[NewDad]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1496411367' post='3311235']
How on earth can you not instantly notice that you have a string tuned to the wrong note?
[/quote]

Faith in technology. He had an inkling something was wrong but didn't twig that the green light on his tuner meant it was a perfect semitone out.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1496407943' post='3311182']
I've played a whole gig with the guitarist tuned about 20 cents sharp compared with the bass because of a tuner problem, and the only person who spotted anything was the drummer who was behind both amps and could her how appealing it sounded and kept telling us to tune up. Of course our tuners told us that we were perfectly in tune (just not with each other).
[/quote]
[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1496411367' post='3311235']
How on earth can you not instantly notice that you have a string tuned to the wrong note?
[/quote]

Bin there. Dun that.

I was playing with a Spanish singer-songwriter, experienced musician, good guy. I was on DB and I was really, really struggling with my intonation.

It didn't matter how hard I concentrated, I was always off-pitch with his guitar.

We played our first gig together and it was the same problem throughout. As a newbie to DB I just assumed naturally it was down to my playing.

At the next rehearsal I played with a Korg Pitchblack permanently on so I KNEW I was playing the right notes, and I challenged him instead.

We checked our tuners. Mine was set to 440. His was set to 432.

He never came up with a convincing explanation for that ...

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1496412169' post='3311247']
Bin there. Dun that.

I was playing with a Spanish singer-songwriter, experienced musician, good guy. I was on DB and I was really, really struggling with my intonation.

It didn't matter how hard I concentrated, I was always off-pitch with his guitar.

We played our first gig together and it was the same problem throughout. As a newbie to DB I just assumed naturally it was down to my playing.

At the next rehearsal I played with a Korg Pitchblack permanently on so I KNEW I was playing the right notes, and I challenged him instead.

We checked our tuners. Mine was set to 440. His was set to 432.

He never came up with a convincing explanation for that ...
[/quote]

At least you noticed something was amiss...

I was more surprised at the suggestion someone had played an entire set like that and not noticed

When I'm out of tune (or someone else in the band) it's patently obvious from the first note...

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='NewDad' timestamp='1496403801' post='3311104']
Not long ago, I heard the bass player of a 60s cover band play a whole set with his A string tuned to Bb. It was gut-wrenching to hear (and Waterloo Sunset excruciating). I was about to tell him but realised no one else was noticing. The crowd was dancing, singing along and clapping. Not a furrowed brow in the house. I left it 'til the break.

Any similar observations?
[/quote]

If punters like the sound of Shane McGowan's singing then your tale does not surprise me.

[attachment=246506:ShaneMcGowan.png]

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1496412169' post='3311247']
Bin there. Dun that.

I was playing with a Spanish singer-songwriter, experienced musician, good guy. I was on DB and I was really, really struggling with my intonation.

It didn't matter how hard I concentrated, I was always off-pitch with his guitar.

We played our first gig together and it was the same problem throughout. As a newbie to DB I just assumed naturally it was down to my playing.

At the next rehearsal I played with a Korg Pitchblack permanently on so I KNEW I was playing the right notes, and I challenged him instead.

We checked our tuners. Mine was set to 440. His was set to 432.

He never came up with a convincing explanation for that ...
[/quote]

There ought to be a topic about that whole 440Hz vs 432Hz thing...

[Woodinblack]

Not only do people in the audience fail to notice, half the people in bands I have been in fail to notice too, and I don't understand how that can happen.

[bassjim]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1496415810' post='3311286']
Not only do people in the audience fail to notice, half the people in bands I have been in fail to notice too, and I don't understand how that can happen.
[/quote] yes ,how can that happen? Usually its the gitrid that happily carries on regardless!

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1496407426' post='3311170']
they banned me from apologising on stage ...
[/quote]

And quite right too - audiences only ever notice the band noticing (frowns, reproachful looks etc), they never notice the actual mistakes. I had ban one singer from telling people stuff like "weve only practised this once so it might not go to well", not as bad as apologising for mistakes but the principal is the same: act like your totally confident and know what your doing all the time, never overtly react to things going wrong, look like your relaxed and enjoying it even if things are going to hell musically and 99% of people will not know any different.

Now while people will say that this means audiences are thick/ignorant or whatever, I dont think its a simple as that - senses are related and are affected by what people are expecting. If people see a professional looking band who are enjoying themselves they will hear the song played properly even if is isnt. I know this is a powerful effect because I have on the odd occasion been in the audience for bands that I have previously played with or depped for and have never spotted the mistakes that they have moaned about afterwards - I could only tell that mistakes were being made because of the facial expressions.

[Monkey Steve]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1496420289' post='3311323']
And quite right too - audiences only ever notice the band noticing (frowns, reproachful looks etc), they never notice the actual mistakes. I had ban one singer from telling people stuff like "weve only practised this once so it might not go to well", not as bad as apologising for mistakes but the principal is the same: act like your totally confident and know what your doing all the time, never overtly react to things going wrong, look like your relaxed and enjoying it even if things are going to hell musically and 99% of people will not know any different.

Now while people will say that this means audiences are thick/ignorant or whatever, I dont think its a simple as that - senses are related and are affected by what people are expecting. If people see a professional looking band who are enjoying themselves they will hear the song played properly even if is isnt. I know this is a powerful effect because I have on the odd occasion been in the audience for bands that I have previously played with or depped for and have never spotted the mistakes that they have moaned about afterwards - I could only tell that mistakes were being made because of the facial expressions.
[/quote]

Oh, I completely agree...and I know that it comes from assuming that the average punter listens to things like me and my musician mates, which of course isn't true in the slightest. Some of the stuff we messed up over the years would have me looking at the band and thinking what a bunch of amateurs, do they even know they've got that wrong or are they that incompetent? and I'd hate to think that the audience think we're that bad we don't even know we've got it wrong.

I did once play with a band where at our debut gig the singer was soooo drunk (and likely not just on booze - we subsequently found out that he had a massive drugs problem, but that night he was solidly drinking on an empty stomach) that he was completely unable to sing, couldn't remember any of the lyrics and when he did manage to make some noise was doing his best dying moose impression for a few songs, before collapsing into the drum kit (a novel finale). Nobody in the band minded when I apologised to the crowd that night.

[blue]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1496405507' post='3311137']


Troo, dat.

The vast majority of punters don't hear you or what you're playing.

They hear the music in their heads instead. The know how the song sounds, so that's what they hear. Unless you do something utterly catastrophic.
[/quote]

It's why I use a lot of high end and sustain. They hear me, you can bet on it.

Blue

[thebrig]

If the majority of punters don't notice bad tuning and mistakes, I guess we don't need to rehearse or practise anymore.

[blue]

In 2015 me and another local gigging bass player went to see The Rolling Stones @ the 23,000 seat Marcus Ampitheater.

They fell out of sync and completely butchered the intro to "Honkey Tonk Women".

I mentioned it to my friend after the show and he said ;

'Yup, and me and you were the only ones that noticed "

Blue

[Lozz196]

A band I used to go and see played Gangsters by The Specials completely wrong, yet the audience used to love it. I think non-musicians focus on the vocals. Sure, if each member of the band had played it individually wrongly maybe they`d have noticed, but as the band as a whole just played the wrong notes, no-one ever mentioned it.

[ivansc]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1496411367' post='3311235']
How on earth can you not instantly notice that you have a string tuned to the wrong note?
[/quote]

If you cant really hear yourself. Has happened to me a couple of times.

I sensed something was not right but because I could barely hear what I was doing, I wasnt sure it was me till the song ended & I could check.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1496407426' post='3311170']
they banned me from apologising on stage

We finish the set, and i go for a chat with the sparse crowd and organiser, and mention how badly I messed up the solo. Nobody noticed anything wrong. And not a polite "don't worry about it, it's was OK *we did notice but we're being nice about it*" but rather "really,? when was that? which bit did you get wrong? sounded fine to us, just like the original"

In summary, the audience are idiots and we deserve better. people who really notice when we f#ck up and hold us to account
[/quote]
[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1496420289' post='3311323']
And quite right too - audiences only ever notice the band noticing (frowns, reproachful looks etc), they never notice the actual mistakes. I had ban one singer from telling people stuff like "weve only practised this once so it might not go to well", not as bad as apologising for mistakes but the principal is the same: act like your totally confident and know what your doing all the time, never overtly react to things going wrong, look like your relaxed and enjoying it even if things are going to hell musically and 99% of people will not know any different.

Now while people will say that this means audiences are thick/ignorant or whatever, I dont think its a simple as that - senses are related and are affected by what people are expecting. If people see a professional looking band who are enjoying themselves they will hear the song played properly even if is isnt. I know this is a powerful effect because I have on the odd occasion been in the audience for bands that I have previously played with or depped for and have never spotted the mistakes that they have moaned about afterwards - I could only tell that mistakes were being made because of the facial expressions.
[/quote]

^This. Had a singer that used to do the - "oh, this is the first time we've performed this" NO! Just get on with it, play it confidently, ignore any mistakes, enjoy it and, unless they are completely the wrong audience for you, they'll enjoy it too.