Single 112 for gigging. Is it realistic?

[Jumanji]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1496565003' post='3312270']

Thrash metal or country dancing?
What you're playing MUST make a difference?
[/quote]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1496565003' post='3312270']

Thrash metal or country dancing?
What you're playing MUST make a difference?
[/quote]

Sorry, I was silly to assume that "wedding venue" would make it obvious I was playing all kinds of cheesy pop. Of course wedding bands can play all sorts!! Doh!

It's a huge variety of all the hits from the 50's to NOW. (Sound like I'm advertising the band HAHA). 80's Pop, Disco, 70's Rock, Tiny bit of funk, Soul, Motown, 90's Indie rock... you get the idea. Nothing that wasn't on TOTP at some point. ;-)

So I used my TC 210 last night in a fairly large (200 capacity I think) dinning room, hotel dance hall. It's running at 400W from the 450 head and it didn't quite manage it. At anything past about 12 o'clock on the volume knob it sounds wooly and undefined... unsatisfying to me anyway.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Jumanji

[Jumanji]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1496571290' post='3312320']


+1000

A good bass sound isn't enough, we need a great bass sound. Do whatever you need to do to sound better than the next guy.
[/quote]

Agreed! That's how we justify GAS :-)

Edited June 4, 2017 by Jumanji

[Tonteee]

[quote name='Jumanji' timestamp='1496478632' post='3311713']
I suppose the question is narrowing a bit now though... Can a 112 be more than enough, and therefor, will I ever use the second 112?
[/quote]

It depends. If you're running 2x112, you have more headroom for the majority of gigs. You then have the option to leave one in the car / van / trailer for the restricted space ones.

Looking at your post about last night, that sounds less like a 'is x enough' issue and more like an actual technical issue of some kind.

Ultimately, you're only going to find out what works for you by using different stuff. Maybe you can borrow a different rig from a friend?

Edited June 4, 2017 by Tonteee

[chris_b]

[quote name='Jumanji' timestamp='1496586503' post='3312471']
So I used my TC 210 last night in a fairly large (200 capacity I think) dinning room, hotel dance hall. It's running at 400W from the 450 head and it didn't quite manage it. At anything past about 12 o'clock on the volume knob it sounds wooly and undefined... unsatisfying to me anyway.
[/quote]

I know my TH500, gain at noon and master on about 10 o'clock, and 1 Super Compact would have that gig covered.

[Jumanji]

[quote name='Tonteee' timestamp='1496587504' post='3312485']

Looking at your post about last night, that sounds less like a 'is x enough' issue and more like an actual technical issue of some kind.

Ultimately, you're only going to find out what works for you by using different stuff. Maybe you can borrow a different rig from a friend?
[/quote]

Could be a technical issue, maybe. Or I could just be looking for professionals opinions and reasons to buy new gear ;-)
It's all fairly new gear and I'm very into setting up my bass within the "correct" spec. The only thing that's not entirely normal in my setup is a wireless system. So unless something is damaged/broken, I'm not sure what other technical issues you could be talking about?!

Yes I have been talking to local bassist about their rigs. I just need to try some that's for sure!... because how can I know without using my own lug-'oles? Exactly.

[Jack]

[quote name='Jumanji' timestamp='1496609899' post='3312737']So unless something is damaged/broken, I'm not sure what other technical issues you could be talking about?![/quote]

I don't mean to speak for Tonteee, but I assume he was concerned that 'not being able to turn a head up past noon' does in fact suggest that something somewhere is broken. Or not working properly at least.

What's special about your wireless?

[Jumanji]

[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1496619257' post='3312798']


I don't mean to speak for Tonteee, but I assume he was concerned that 'not being able to turn a head up past noon' does in fact suggest that something somewhere is broken. Or not working properly at least.

What's special about your wireless?
[/quote]

Yes indeed, I totally agree! No offence has been caused. I'm curious to what I may have overlooked. It's not like it sounds terrible past 'noon', but it's not as fun to play through at higher volumes.

The more I think about it the more I think what I'm talking about is just distasteful frequencies being more audible at higher volumes... so if I EQ a sound I like at a lower level, then push it up, I find I'm having to EQ far more heavily than expected to pull out the "bad" frequencies/tones. Perhaps I'm being a little too fussy, and it's not like 99.9% of audiences notice this level of geekery, but for £xxxx I thought I would have an amp and cab that sounded better "out of the box".

Nothing special about the wireless system. I've just heard folk saying that wireless isn't all that good for bass because of the frequencies involved. Some say the signal can't be properly reproduced. I was pointing that out in case anyone thought that could be an issue in my signal chain.

Back to the original question....
After all that's been said and after talking to some bassists I know (including you lot), I don't think a single 112 is a solution for the varied function band spaces we find ourselves in, especially as subs are not always available to plumb in to. The modular idea is where it's at, but probably more than a few extra quid. So I think for now I'll go for a more powerful 210. I can always upgrade again later or add a 112 to that for extra range and volume. I've probably made it sound like I want to be crazy loud, but I don't. I just want what most bass players playing a massive variety of genres wants... clean, honest tone at any volume.

[Jumanji]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1496499741' post='3311935']
To be honest, the main reason I wanted the 2x10 is so that I could put it on the 112s and bring the amp up higher to eye level!
But I have changed my car from an insignia estate to a seat leon so my carrying capactity has gone down a bit.
[/quote]

Well if you ever find yourself with a bigger car again, I will be shifting my TC combo pretty soon ;-)

[Al Krow]

[quote name='Jumanji' timestamp='1496626581' post='3312803']
Yes indeed, I totally agree! No offence has been caused. I'm curious to what I may have overlooked. It's not like it sounds terrible past 'noon', but it's not as fun to play through at higher volumes.

The more I think about it the more I think what I'm talking about is just distasteful frequencies being more audible at higher volumes... so if I EQ a sound I like at a lower level, then push it up, I find I'm having to EQ far more heavily than expected to pull out the "bad" frequencies/tones. Perhaps I'm being a little too fussy, and it's not like 99.9% of audiences notice this level of geekery, but for £xxxx I thought I would have an amp and cab that sounded better "out of the box".

Nothing special about the wireless system. I've just heard folk saying that wireless isn't all that good for bass because of the frequencies involved. Some say the signal can't be properly reproduced. I was pointing that out in case anyone thought that could be an issue in my signal chain.

Back to the original question....
After all that's been said and after talking to some bassists I know (including you lot), I don't think a single 112 is a solution for the varied function band spaces we find ourselves in, especially as subs are not always available to plumb in to. The modular idea is where it's at, but probably more than a few extra quid. So I think for now I'll go for a more powerful 210. I can always upgrade again later or add a 112 to that for extra range and volume. I've probably made it sound like I want to be crazy loud, but I don't. I just want what most bass players playing a massive variety of genres wants... clean, honest tone at any volume.
[/quote]

Wireless can be completely fine depending on the set-up and system you are using. I recently joined the very satisfied contingent of BCers who use Smooth Hound wireless and no issues at all with it so far and am enjoying it a lot. There's a couple of good threads on the Accessories forum which look into this in some detail.

A 2x10 set up will shift more air than a 1x12 for sure and that makes sense, although an extension 1x12 cab would seem to be even better in this regard for what you have set out as your needs / objectives as you could then have in effect a dispersed 2x12 which is a further step up from both the 2x10 or a 1x12. And IMHO the 12" speaker size also provides the best compromise of deep bass and tight articulation for bass guitars - but that's a whole different discussion (and I appreciate that there are also differing views on this, as with every, subject)!

But if a 2x10 is what your gut is telling you in terms of pros and cons, including portability, then go for it! Look forward to hearing what you decide to get to replace your TC combo.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Al Krow

[Phil Starr]

I've been reading this for a while but haven't commented because almost all of the things I'd have said are on the other 12" threads running at the moment, also I think this is more a 'what to buy next thread' than a technical one. There are plenty of people out there with more expertise than me in that area.

It seems to me that you are happy with your sound but want just a touch more of it? If so then why not just get a second matching 2x10 for the bigger venues?

A 2x10 or a 112 should be enough for anything if you can genuinely put everything through the PA. keeping your own volume down on stage stops the vocal mics picking up too much backline and really cleans up the band's sound. If you can hear yourself with your current set up you have enough and it is better practice to let the PA do the heavy lifting. You can hear yourself now so for this band the set up you have is 'enough'.

As to the technical issues. There's nothing special about that TC so the excursion of the speakers is going to limit ultimate bass output, but I suspect from your description of 'distasteful frequencies' that the piezo tweeter may be the problem. If you overload that it is going to be distasteful as it will if you run the amp into distortion at the peaks. As a temporary measure turn it off or down if you can, rather than trying to eq the distortion out. I really don't think the wireless connection has anything to do with it (unless your batteries were flat), my very run of the mill Line 6 G30 actually gives a cleaner sound than a long lead.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Phil Starr

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Jumanji' timestamp='1496440721' post='3311541']
Yes, great film!!
I'm thinking of large wedding venues. Barns and the dreaded marquees! My current TC combo 450 often sounds feeble anywhere other than on stage. So I'm just wondering if a more powerful 112 could be capable of doing any better.
[/quote]

I used to play in a function band with a Epifany 310 and 1.6kw amp - a monstrously powerful setup, but venues without nearby solid walls (like the barns and marquees you mentioned) would still suck some of the guts out of the sound. I think its something you have to live with in these sorts of venues to some extent. I also think its an effect that is more noticeable to you onstage playing that someone in the audience.

Edited June 5, 2017 by bassman7755

[Muzz]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496424205' post='3311368']
Be interested in which of the MB 121 combos you were using? The only one I'd be a little hesitant in using in a gig situation (without an extension cab) would be the CMD 121p, but the 121 H or 121 AC (especially the latter with its 500W stand alone capacity) should easily deliver the goods in a pub / club venue.
[/quote]

Woefully late on this one, but yeah, it was the 121p - it sounded uncomfortably farty pretty soon. But then, as I mentioned, I had 3 x Berg 112s, and never gigged with just one...

[Al Krow]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1496655650' post='3312933']
Woefully late on this one, but yeah, it was the 121p - it sounded uncomfortably farty pretty soon. But then, as I mentioned, I had 3 x Berg 112s, and never gigged with just one...
[/quote]

Cheers Muzz. That's kinda very helpful for the wrong reasons ...I'm back to the drawing board then: I'd kinda concluded that the 121p was the better option for a small rehearsal combo than the AER One both in terms of value for money and headroom (and I've seen a number of AER One owners trade in their amps for MB 121p mini rigs for exactly these reasons). However what you've said chimes with e.g. Molan's recent reminder about the 121p having an annoying piezo tweeter rather than the horn in it's bigger siblings and methinks that it may not therefore be the best option, after all, for a compact portable mini combo, for me. So I guess I will be sticking with my Promethean 3110 for now which does the job perfectly well but lacks the "flair" and tonal articulation of the AER One and the MB CMD121p which is be expected given the relative price points of the three amps. But that is all a complete personal sidetrack from the OPs query, so please excuse this diversion from the main thread!

Edited June 5, 2017 by Al Krow

[Jumanji]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1496653995' post='3312915']


I used to play in a function band with a Epifany 310 and 1.6kw amp - a monstrously powerful setup, but venues without nearby solid walls (like the barns and marquees you mentioned) would still suck some of the guts out of the sound. I think its something you have to live with in these sorts of venues to some extent. I also think its an effect that is more noticeable to you onstage playing that someone in the audience.
[/quote]

Yes I think you're right. It is more noticeable because I am the bands sound engineer and walkabout bassist too! I can entertain the crowd by strutting about, while also checking levels. It's not ideal, but means we can charge less! ;-)