DHA Power Amp idea - help please

[DHA]

I started a thread in the effects forum asking for help about a new pedal format I want to do. The thread went off subject and moved onto mini power amps, got me thinking.

A few years ago I did a few rack-mount bass amps with 400W and 700W Hypex modules and a 5W valve pre-amp and valve output stage. In those days Hypex power amp modules only worked with linear power supplies which meant a very large and heavy transformer but they now have a switchmode PSU which does not require a transformer and is quite small. They even do modules with the PSU and amp on the same PCB now.

My idea after requests on the other thread ---

A VT1-EQ-DI-Bass pedal design with 180W or 400W or 700W power stages. Would be a mains supplied self contained unit as small as possible. All the fun of a valve amp and very high volume but lightweight.

There are mini power amps out there already but is there room for one with a valve pre-amp? How much would people be willing to pay? is there a need?

Its a big project and would need investment as the product would need development, designing, manufacturing, marketing, CE mark, etc. So something I would not take on unless it make sense and there is a market.

I look forward to your comments

[Cuzzie]

Dave I will copy in what I wrote to you and then answer after...


For me and my 2 pence worth this is what I think.

Keep it stripped and simple
Size - about half to 2/3 that of a Cali preferable but Cali size is no biggy
No EQ section volume only
750w @ 4Ohms minimum switchable down @8ohms to about 350w clean power. Has to be continuous RMS full watts.
Hypex power module
DI out
Headphone in
Aux in
Speakon/jack multi function port out

Now you can add compression to help alleviate peaks in sound to allow the true RMS or you can suggest a compressor before (heaven forbid!) to get the best out the amp.

Drive circuits are very subjective so I would leave one out and people can pre-amp in front, I know I would!

[Cuzzie]

The options I see it are as you describe, which if going for a simple circuit put you into Quilter bass block territory for simplicity, or even Handbox (but they are quite big) or with a drive circuit that is looking at Genzler magellan or Darkglass territory, Tech 21 VT etc.

If you wanted to go for pure clean power then it's the Demeter Minnie 800 or Jule M700 power amp for non rackable stuff I would say are out there in front.

Not sure what other people are doing, but if people already have pre-amps they are happy with, then a small portable simple power amp to replicate faithfully their sound may be the way forward which could also double as a headphone practice amp, or DI without a cab.

Personally I have a valve pre-amp in the Two Notes LeBass, a Cali76 and a Hartke VXL bass attack pre-amp, and I may well get the Tech21 dUg pre-amp pedal when it comes out in the next year, so I probably have all the sound modulation I want, but a small power bundle similar to the Quilter Micro45 or as close as can be is a definite pick and go option

[DHA]

[quote name='Cuzzie' timestamp='1496497633' post='3311921']
The options I see it are as you describe, which if going for a simple circuit put you into Quilter bass block territory for simplicity, or even Handbox (but they are quite big) or with a drive circuit that is looking at Genzler magellan or Darkglass territory, Tech 21 VT etc.

If you wanted to go for pure clean power then it's the Demeter Minnie 800 or Jule M700 power amp for non rackable stuff I would say are out there in front.

Not sure what other people are doing, but if people already have pre-amps they are happy with, then a small portable simple power amp to replicate faithfully their sound may be the way forward which could also double as a headphone practice amp, or DI without a cab.

Personally I have a valve pre-amp in the Two Notes LeBass, a Cali76 and a Hartke VXL bass attack pre-amp, and I may well get the Tech21 dUg pre-amp pedal when it comes out in the next year, so I probably have all the sound modulation I want, but a small power bundle similar to the Quilter Micro45 or as close as can be is a definite pick and go option
[/quote]

I take your point about pre-amps being a personnel thing but a clean power amp would be just one more of many already available.

I would make the valve drive switch-able so it could be used just as a power amp with active EQ.

Edited June 3, 2017 by DHA

[Cuzzie]

OK,
No worries, completely get your point.

I think aside from me saying it could just be a clean power amp, the other points are winners for me.

I need to go away and listen properly at the voicing of your other pedals with headphones on to hear how it sounds.
This is not being critical of your work, I just want to hear it to see if something like that would work for me personally and where it sits with other things out there

[Al Krow]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496502724' post='3311954']
I take your point about pre-amps being a personnel thing but a clean power amp would be just one more of many already available.
[/quote]

I'm not sure about this. The Demeter Minnie 800D is way too big for a pedal board. It's nearly 2000 cc in size. What pedal board sized hypex power amps are out there? I can't think of any with sufficient heft for the typical bass player.

EQ would be nice to have, but EQ and / or valve pre-amp can be sold separately and there are already plenty of options available in terms of quality preamp pedals. The market is not crying out for yet another pre-amp pedal.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]As Cuzzie notes "a small power bundle similar to the Quilter Micro45 or as close as can be is a definite pick and go option". [/font][/color]I agree, and IMHO this is where the gap in the market exits for Quilter or a-n-other fleet of foot pedal maker to fill.

The Quilter 45 is offering (only) 45 W in something around 250 cc in size and getting a LOT of enthusiastic take up across the pond:

[url="https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/quilter-microblock-45.1786272/"]https://www.thegearp...ock-45.1786272/[/url]

45W is fine for guitarists but not sufficient for bassists, right?

For bassists: 200W clean power amp in a box no larger than 600 cc (or as close to as poss) would be a great product, sit nicely on a pedal board, and potentially revolutionise how bass players view amp heads.

Is it do-able?

Edited June 3, 2017 by Al Krow

[Jack]

There's the [url="http://www.guitarsoundsystems.com/gss-baby-sumo-ampxlite-bass-guitar-power-amp-c2x21844846"]GSS one[/url] to think about/compete with too.

[xgsjx]

I'd like a big lump of a valve amp to sit upon my cab, but isn't hernia inducing when it comes to moving it (my current amp weighs more than my car).

[DHA]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496529252' post='3312158']
I'm not sure about this. The Demeter Minnie 800D is way too big for a pedal board. It's nearly 2000 cc in size. What pedal board sized hypex power amps are out there? I can't think of any with sufficient heft for the typical bass player.

EQ would be nice to have, but EQ and / or valve pre-amp can be sold separately and there are already plenty of options available in terms of quality preamp pedals. The market is not crying out for yet another pre-amp pedal.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]As Cuzzie notes "a small power bundle similar to the Quilter Micro45 or as close as can be is a definite pick and go option". [/font][/color]I agree, and IMHO this is where the gap in the market exits for Quilter or a-n-other fleet of foot pedal maker to fill.

The Quilter 45 is offering (only) 45 W in something around 250 cc in size and getting a LOT of enthusiastic take up across the pond:

[url="https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/quilter-microblock-45.1786272/"]https://www.thegearp...ock-45.1786272/[/url]

45W is fine for guitarists but not sufficient for bassists, right?

For bassists: 200W clean power amp in a box no larger than 600 cc (or as close to as poss) would be a great product, sit nicely on a pedal board, and potentially revolutionise how bass players view amp heads.

Is it do-able?
[/quote]

okay 250W in a box with Di and 1/4" in (requires pre-amp) and volume control - should go in a box around 200x150x60

500W - 200x180x60

but as I say there are lots of very nice mini high power amps already out there.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496566078' post='3312280']
okay 250W in a box with Di and 1/4" in (requires pre-amp) and volume control - should go in a box around 200x150x60

500W - 200x180x60

but as I say there are lots of very nice mini high power amps already out there.
[/quote]

So 200W in 1800cc and 500W in 2200cc? My sense is that you would need to be much more compact than that to be a "head turner". The Demeter Minnie 800D is already providing 800W in 2000cc so, as you say, you would be going head to head with some very nice mini high power amps rather than going for an altogether new and untapped market segment that something in the Quilter 45 size represents.

I suspect Quilter will get a 200W micro pedal not much larger than their Q45 out within the next couple of years, microchips are becoming more heat efficient all the time.

[DHA]

I remembered that I made a 700W PA amp out of Hypex modules in a 2U rack with Di in. Found it yesterday, anyone want it as a bass amp if throw in a VT1-EQ-Di-Bass to drive it?

Also have some 400W modules I could get going again if anyone interested?

They both have linear power supplies and transformers so large boxes required. But I could buy the new switch mode power supply versions and put in a smaller box.

Edited June 4, 2017 by DHA

[DHA]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496566965' post='3312288']
So 200W in 1800cc and 500W in 2200cc? My sense is that you would need to be much more compact than that to be a "head turner". The Demeter Minnie 800D is already providing 800W in 2000cc so, as you say, you would be going head to head with some very nice mini high power amps rather than going for an altogether new and untapped market segment that something in the Quilter 45 size represents.

I suspect Quilter will get a 200W micro pedal not much larger than their Q45 out within the next couple of years, microchips are becoming more heat efficient all the time.
[/quote]

nothing to do with micro chips, watts is watts and unless they use super-conductors and run at absolute zero then the heat has to go somewhere.

[Cuzzie]

I remember reading about that on TB amongst other places.

It says 600w @4ohms but I don't know if that's peak power or continuous and how long it lasts.
From what I rememeber you needed a decent pre-amp or it would not drive it at all. Most people had it on their amp and it pedal board as if you think about it if you have a speakon connector either this is long, or a Jack cable is long from guitar stuff to the amp, although technically I suppose you could go wireles....

Pre-amp of some sort maybe necessary, but the killer for me will be capabilities of using it as a practice amp also with aux input and headphone output which DOES set it apart from demeter, Minnie etc

[DHA]

[quote name='Cuzzie' timestamp='1496567533' post='3312292']
I remember reading about that on TB amongst other places.

It says 600w @4ohms but I don't know if that's peak power or continuous and how long it lasts.
From what I rememeber you needed a decent pre-amp or it would not drive it at all. Most people had it on their amp and it pedal board as if you think about it if you have a speakon connector either this is long, or a Jack cable is long from guitar stuff to the amp, although technically I suppose you could go wireles....

Pre-amp of some sort maybe necessary, but the killer for me will be capabilities of using it as a practice amp also with aux input and headphone output which DOES set it apart from demeter, Minnie etc
[/quote]

yes you will need good speaker cables, as the wattage goes up so does the current and we are talking Amps here

[Cuzzie]

Good speaker cables are a given in my book

But thinking about the chain, person to board to amp to speaker.
it's well and good to have a power amp on the board, but if your speaker is far away you will need a long Speakon cable.
These are way more inflexible that a 1/4 instrument jack hence tripping issues, a 1/4 amp jack is better for flexibility, but I prefer speakon for amp to cab.

This means then whatever the power amp will still be on the cab.

Now with a small enough real estate you could have the wireless, pre-amp and DHA power amp all on top the cab if you were a set and go person.
Or you could have the DHA power, with a VT1 EQ on the floor, board or not through to a cab/FOH PA and that's all you need so it's your silent practice rig and performing rig

There are loads of opportunities here.

[DHA]

[quote name='Cuzzie' timestamp='1496569416' post='3312311']
Good speaker cables are a given in my book

But thinking about the chain, person to board to amp to speaker.
it's well and good to have a power amp on the board, but if your speaker is far away you will need a long Speakon cable.
These are way more inflexible that a 1/4 instrument jack hence tripping issues, a 1/4 amp jack is better for flexibility, but I prefer speakon for amp to cab.

This means then whatever the power amp will still be on the cab.

Now with a small enough real estate you could have the wireless, pre-amp and DHA power amp all on top the cab if you were a set and go person.
Or you could have the DHA power, with a VT1 EQ on the floor, board or not through to a cab/FOH PA and that's all you need so it's your silent practice rig and performing rig

There are loads of opportunities here.
[/quote]

I tend to agree, why would anyone want a high power amp on their pedal board?

[Cuzzie]

It's the convenience of everything in one bag and all powered off a good isolated power brick for people on multiple jobs or quick changeovers.
It's also a space saver for storage issues, I have to hide my gear from the Mrs as I suspect we all do!

Or like I said and all in one.

People with way more gigging experience than me will hopefully chime in.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496570615' post='3312316']
I tend to agree, why would anyone want a high power amp on their pedal board?
[/quote]

Several of us have already commented on the other thread that if there was a compact quality solution that would fit on a pedal board, we would buy one for the convenience. The demand is there. But it has to be compact i.e. circa 600cc to 1000cc if it's going to fit on a pedal board not the 2000 cc solutions currently available.

It means we can just gig with pedal board + cab + bass, instead of pedal board + head + cab + bass. It's one less thing to take and set up.

But I think you are saying that the required level of miniaturisation is not do-able, so perhaps we should abandon this particular product suggestion and explore your other offerings instead?

Edited June 4, 2017 by Al Krow

[BassBod]

Just very small, metal case, one knob for output level and two speakon/jack combo outputs. If it needs a fan, then very very quiet. 400w (8ohm) would be fine for me, but 600w better. Also the option to easily mount on a 1u rack tray so it can be used with old rack preamps, without adding lots of additional weight and space.

Luxury options - output peak LED, transformer DI out (straight from the input) and input gain for fine tuning/matching different preamp outputs.

[DHA]

what if it was a pedal board power supply (power your pedals), a few foot-switch operated Fx loops with blenders, tuner mute, Di out, headphone amp, aux in and a power amp? That way I could work with the pedal board makers and make a bigger box as it would be doing other things as well.

[DHA]

[quote name='Cuzzie' timestamp='1496572343' post='3312331']
It's the convenience of everything in one bag and all powered off a good isolated power brick for people on multiple jobs or quick changeovers.
It's also a space saver for storage issues, I have to hide my gear from the Mrs as I suspect we all do!

Or like I said and all in one.

People with way more gigging experience than me will hopefully chime in.
[/quote]

you can get the Hypex modules in a plate format which are fitted to cabs so making an active speaker. Adds no more size to the cab and gets rid of the speaker cable issue. They have Di input so can drive them from the pedal board.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496579352' post='3312394']
what if it was a pedal board power supply (power your pedals), a few foot-switch operated Fx loops with blenders, tuner mute, Di out, headphone amp, aux in and a power amp? That way I could work with the pedal board makers and make a bigger box as it would be doing other things as well.
[/quote]

That sounds good!! And still fit comfortably on a pedal board as a single compact (ish) pedal?

[DHA]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1496580852' post='3312414']
That sounds good!! And still fit comfortably on a pedal board as a single compact (ish) pedal?
[/quote]

I am thinking it would be at the back of the pedal board, maybe the length of a small board. There are units like this out there as well as power bricks but non with power amps I know of.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='DHA' timestamp='1496581961' post='3312423']
I am thinking it would be at the back of the pedal board, maybe the length of a small board. There are units like this out there as well as power bricks but non with power amps I know of.
[/quote]

Yes that could work and be very interesting! What approx dimensions do you have in mind?

PS I would suggest if you were providing power then something along the lines of a Ciocks DC5 with isolated (noise free) outputs but delivering up to 300mA each would be awesome.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Al Krow