Best amp head (500W to 1000W) you've ever owned? (Or should definitely avoid!)

[Al Krow]

Just had a pleasant couple of hours A/B'ing 3 very good amps through VK210 LNT and BF SC cabs with a fellow BCer.

In terms of feature set @bassfan's TC RH750, having the ability to preset 3 favourite EQs to match his different basses and then to add Spectracomp compression and 'tubetone' valve amp emulation plus an on-board tuner, lightweight and 750W all for £650, is in many ways a gigging bassist's dream amp! If I was starting over, I would definitely consider as an alternative to the highly regarded GM 800 (£700) or my own DG M900 (£850).

But neither of us could get away from the fact that the now out-of-production Mesa M6 Carbine was tonally in a different league to both our lightweight D class heads; and the interaction of its valve preamp with a 'Transclass' (for which I'm, maybe incorrectly(?) reading class A/B)** MOSFET poweramp gave an articulation and tonal 'sparkle' to our basses that we weren't hearing in either of our very capable D class heads. Although tbf the convenience of the D class amps and the fact that no one listening in the "Dog and Duck" would likely notice the difference meant that the D class would certainly continue to be being used by us both  

* @agedhorse maybe you could shed some light on where 'Transclass' sits in relation to the more usual A/B and D terminology for us?

 

 

[thodrik]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Just had a pleasant couple of hours A/B'ing 3 very good amps through VK210 LNT and BF SC cabs with a fellow BCer.

In terms of feature set @bassfan's TC RH750, having the ability to preset 3 favourite EQs to match his different basses and then to add Spectracomp compression and 'tubetone' valve amp emulation plus an on-board tuner, lightweight and 750W all for £650, is in many ways a gigging bassist's dream amp! If I was starting over, I would definitely consider as an alternative to the highly regarded GM 800 (£700) or my own DG M900 (£850).

But neither of us could get away from the fact that the now out-of-production Mesa M6 Carbine was tonally in a different league to both our lightweight D class heads; and the interaction of its valve preamp with a 'Transclass' (for which I'm, maybe incorrectly(?) reading class A/B)** MOSFET poweramp gave an articulation and tonal 'sparkle' to our basses that we weren't hearing in either of our very capable D class heads. Although tbf the convenience of the D class amps and the fact that no one listening in the "Dog and Duck" would likely notice the difference meant that the D class would certainly continue to be being used by us both  

* @agedhorse maybe you could shed some light on where 'Transclass' sits in relation to the more usual A/B and D terminology for us?

 

 

Agedhorse will know more than me, I am pretty sure that the Trans-class Mesas (the M3, M6 and M9) have a single tube in the Pre amp section and the power amp is entirely MOSFET based. This is opposed to the 'Simul-state' Mesa's like the original Walkabout and M-Pulse Line which I believe used valves along with MOSFETS as part of the power section. The Simul-states like the Wakabout were designed to behave similar to an all valve amp. I think that the voicing of the Carbine series was designed to be a lot cleaner with lots of articulation with a more immediate response. This means that the M6 will have huge amounts of clean headroom and you won't lose any definition while you turn up the Master volume.  

The M6 also puts out a hell of a lot of low end grunt, especially if you pull out the 'Deep' switch which adds deep lows and adds a bit of sparkle up top. 

So basically, the amp delivers 'heft'.

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, thodrik said:

The M6 also puts out a hell of a lot of low end grunt, especially if you pull out the 'Deep' switch which adds deep lows and adds a bit of sparkle up top. So basically, the amp delivers 'heft'.

Yes indeed it does!

Fyi - I've been finding that adding a Thumpinator at the start of the chain allows me to get that additional 'heft' via the 'pull deep' without blowing out too many basement window panes  Seems to be a good combination.

5 minutes ago, thodrik said:

I think that the voicing of the Carbine series was designed to be a lot cleaner with lots of articulation with a more immediate response. This means that the M6 will have huge amounts of clean headroom and you won't lose any definition while you turn up the Master volume.  

You've pretty much nailed what we were hearing!

Do you have one yourself?

Edited January 13, 2019 by Al Krow

[thodrik]

32 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Yes indeed it does!

Fyi - I've been finding that adding a Thumpinator at the start of the chain allows me to get that additional 'heft' via the 'pull deep' without blowing out too many basement window panes  Seems to be a good combination.

You've pretty much nailed what we were hearing!

Do you have one yourself?

I do. Bought it on the BC marketplace back in 2016. 

It is a fantastic amp but I prefer my Walkabout to be honest, just because I love the slightly gritty tone I can dial in that I can only get in the M6 via use of a pedal.

I have been tempted of selling the M6 just because I don’t need that much clean headroom. The volume the M6 is capable of is just ridiculous!

[agedhorse]

2 hours ago, thodrik said:

Agedhorse will know more than me, I am pretty sure that the Trans-class Mesas (the M3, M6 and M9) have a single tube in the Pre amp section and the power amp is entirely MOSFET based. This is opposed to the 'Simul-state' Mesa's like the original Walkabout and M-Pulse Line which I believe used valves along with MOSFETS as part of the power section. The Simul-states like the Wakabout were designed to behave similar to an all valve amp. I think that the voicing of the Carbine series was designed to be a lot cleaner with lots of articulation with a more immediate response. This means that the M6 will have huge amounts of clean headroom and you won't lose any definition while you turn up the Master volume.  
 

Trans-Class is simply the way the solid state class AB output stage is driven and how the global feedback is configured as compared with say the Walkabout, which is similar totally different.at the same time. The aggressive nature of the Carbines is as much the preamp's native voicing and how the gain stages interact as it is power amp based.

Edited January 13, 2019 by agedhorse

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

Trans-Class is simply the way the solid state class AB output stage is driven and how the global feedback is configured as compared with say the Walkabout, which is similar totally different.at the same time. The aggressive nature of the Carbines is as much the preamp's native voicing and how the gain stages interact as it is power amp based.

Thanks very much for that. So I think for my simple head it's correct to think of the M6 as being a single 12Ax7 valve preamp + AB class poweramp (and certainly not a D class power amp).

When you say "aggressive nature" of the Carbines (which is of course very much in keeping with its machine gun branding!) what are you particularly referring to?

Is the new WD-800 similar sounding?

[agedhorse]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Thanks very much for that. So I think for my simple head it's correct to think of the M6 as being a single 12Ax7 valve preamp + AB class poweramp (and certainly not a D class power amp).

When you say "aggressive nature" of the Carbines (which is of course very much in keeping with its machine gun branding!) what are you particularly referring to?

Is the new WD-800 similar sounding?

Yes, more or less correct.

 

The aggressive nature of the carbine series (and carried forward in a different texture with the Prodigy/Strategy) is in part the voicing (mid forward, brash, with a bit of a bright edge to it) and in part the tightness, in keeping with the image of the guitar amps that were popular (Recto series) as the focus at the time they were designed are more towards the harder, heavier styles of music. The distortion generated when overdriven fit well with that kind of music.

The WD-800 is closer to the Walkabout than the Carbines, the Walkabout is more laid back, especially that later ones, in the high end, a bit understated, with a rounder, looser low end. There's a bit of politeness present in the Walkabout that set it apart from many of the previous Mesa heads. The WD-800 is similar to the Walkabout in that it's a little more polite than the carbines, but it's a little brighter than the WA, and where the WA had a wooliness and a looseness that could be difficult to work with in a gigging situation and had significant limitations with regard to power (which could not be scaled up), the WD-800 addressed this with a lot more power, a little tighter (though some of this is selectable through the damping feature), greater articulation and forwardness. 

Hope this helps.

[Al Krow]

24 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

Hope this helps.

Very helpful thanks, although my experience is just of a very articulate and clear amp with a great tone! 

A question you may not be able to answer: - given that production of these (lovely!) amps ceased in May 2017, I'm a little intrigued that they continue to be available "for order" from certain UK retailers!

Is that just a case of Mesa slowly unloading surplus stock they have hidden away in their stores?

I see that the UK prices have of new amps, if anything, gone significantly higher than before production ceased (whilst the used market for Mesa gear seems to be languishing) - which could be explained by scarcity, although on the other hand 'end of line' gear is more usually discounted.

[agedhorse]

44 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Very helpful thanks, although my experience is just of a very articulate and clear amp with a great tone! 

A question you may not be able to answer: - given that production of these (lovely!) amps ceased in May 2017, I'm a little intrigued that they continue to be available "for order" from certain UK retailers!

Is that just a case of Mesa slowly unloading surplus stock they have hidden away in their stores?

I see that the UK prices have of new amps, if anything, gone significantly higher than before production ceased (whilst the used market for Mesa gear seems to be languishing) - which could be explained by scarcity, although on the other hand 'end of line' gear is more usually discounted.

I suspect the reason is that a few old stock amps that may have been ordered before the end of production may still be in warehouses, I seriously doubt that it more than a VERY small number. For overseas orders, there can be a significant time lag between the time a product is ordered (we typically build to order), the time all of the items on a shipment are ready to ship, the time for shipping, clearing customs, any additional in country safety testing and certifications, delivery to the distributor, then to the dealers can take 6 months or more depending on the country and how many different products are on the shipment. They have not been available from the factory in over a year.

Hope this helps with the confusion.

[danny-79]

My Orange Terror 1000watt. Since I swapped out the tubes for some low gain 5150’s it a completely different beast, a lot more manageable and no so in your face and for the very basic controls makes it easy to quickly dial in a nice tone. 

Second up, still pretty basic is the Genz-Bens Shuttle 600watt. This head never fails to sound good what ever it’s plugged into, my only regret is not getting the 900watt version (I’m actually after a second one if anyone knows of one going at a reasonable price pm me) 

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, danny-79 said:

My Orange Terror 1000watt. Since I swapped out the tubes for some low gain 5150’s it a completely different beast, a lot more manageable and no so in your face and for the very basic controls makes it easy to quickly dial in a nice tone. 

That's a really interesting suggestion

@dannybuoy as a TB owner / fan, what do you think - worth exploring?

Edited January 15, 2019 by Al Krow

[krispn]

Tube rolling can be fun  but expensive! The 12AX7 -12AU7 swap to reduce preamp gain is a common one to offer a bit more 'clean headroom.

[dannybuoy]

I tried a lower gain tube in the V1 slot and it did indeed give me more usable range on the gain knob...

But then again both tubes sounded similar to me except with the original the gain knob was at 9 o'clock and with the new one it was at 12 o'clock. I didn't notice any improvement in sound, in fact I thought the 12AX7 sounded better so swapped back. Although I am running Gold Lions in mine as I fancied an upgrade from the stock jobs!

[danny-79]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

That's a really interesting suggestion

Both of my stingrays are very high output so with the standard 12AX7 now with the very low gain 5150  I can open the gain up a lot more, might be a bit low for some but works for me

Edited January 15, 2019 by danny-79

[danny-79]

12 minutes ago, danny-79 said:

Both of my stingrays are very high output so with the standard 12AX7 now with the very low gain 5150 I can open the gain up a lot more, might be a bit low for some but works for me

5150, I think I mean 5751 

[Dan Dare]

Guitar amps respond well to swapping out the tubes in the input stages for lower gain versions, too. It helps get rid of that on/off switch effect, where it either sounds filthy or clean with nothing in between. 

[bassfan]

On 13/01/2019 at 17:10, Al Krow said:

Just had a pleasant couple of hours A/B'ing 3 very good amps through VK210 LNT and BF SC cabs with a fellow BCer.

In terms of feature set @bassfan's TC RH750, having the ability to preset 3 favourite EQs to match his different basses and then to add Spectracomp compression and 'tubetone' valve amp emulation plus an on-board tuner, lightweight and 750W all for £650, is in many ways a gigging bassist's dream amp! If I was starting over, I would definitely consider as an alternative to the highly regarded GM 800 (£700) or my own DG M900 (£850).

But neither of us could get away from the fact that the now out-of-production Mesa M6 Carbine was tonally in a different league to both our lightweight D class heads; and the interaction of its valve preamp with a 'Transclass' (for which I'm, maybe incorrectly(?) reading class A/B)** MOSFET poweramp gave an articulation and tonal 'sparkle' to our basses that we weren't hearing in either of our very capable D class heads. Although tbf the convenience of the D class amps and the fact that no one listening in the "Dog and Duck" would likely notice the difference meant that the D class would certainly continue to be being used by us both  

* @agedhorse maybe you could shed some light on where 'Transclass' sits in relation to the more usual A/B and D terminology for us?

 

 

Well... what can I say, adding to @Al Krow‘s comments above we spent a few hours A/b big some gear and playing some basses, I echoe the words above as I love my RH750. I’ve used the rh450 upgraded to the 750 for best part of 10 years.  I preferred the RH over the DG, having never heard a DG I really wasn’t blown away.  My preferences are for the presets and compressor built in to the RH. I’d never use the DGs built in effects pedals. All horses for courses I guess.

We then tried his Mesa M6 Carbine. Wow.  What different beast it was. Head and shoulders better, tonally than the 2 class Ds. To be fair you would expect that as the new value on it was double both the other 2. I liked it so much that I was fortunate enough to acquire @thodrik‘s M6 this week.  It was put through it’s paces this evening at a gig and it certainly didn’t disappoint in anyway. Fat warm sound but clear and crisp highs when needed, really cut through the mix. It punches hard and purrs like a kitten if you lay back a bit. I couldn’t be happier with the set up (running with a Bergantino cn212)... The rest of the band loved it to, instantly picking up on the sound being warmer, more rounded...this could possibly be my favorite amp to date. 👍🏻

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by bassfan

[Cuzzie]

All good findings - as ever the tone you want will always be an amp by amp basis, and of course it depends what goes in front

[thodrik]

14 hours ago, bassfan said:

Well... what can I say, adding to @Al Krow‘s comments above we spent a few hours A/b big some gear and playing some basses, I echoe the words above as I love my RH750. I’ve used the rh450 upgraded to the 750 for best part of 10 years.  I preferred the RH over the DG, having never heard a DG I really wasn’t blown away.  My preferences are for the presets and compressor built in to the RH. I’d never use the DGs built in effects pedals. All horses for courses I guess.

We then tried his Mesa M6 Carbine. Wow.  What different beast it was. Head and shoulders better, tonally than the 2 class Ds. To be fair you would expect that as the new value on it was double both the other 2. I liked it so much that I was fortunate enough to acquire @thodrik‘s M6 this week.  It was put through it’s paces this evening at a gig and it certainly didn’t disappoint in anyway. Fat warm sound but clear and crisp highs when needed, really cut through the mix. It punches hard and purrs like a kitten if you lay back a bit. I couldn’t be happier with the set up (running with a Bergantino cn212)... The rest of the band loved it to, instantly picking up on the sound being warmer, more rounded...this could possibly be my favorite amp to date. 👍🏻

 

Great stuff! 

I’m back to using my Walkabout for my gigging needs. Though I will definitely by buying another Mesa in the future, probably the new WD 800.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, thodrik said:

Great stuff! 

I’m back to using my Walkabout for my gigging needs. Though I will definitely by buying another Mesa in the future, probably the new WD 800.

Looking forward to hearing what you think of the WD-800 if / when you get one (and I won't be alone in being interested on that score!)

Is that likely to be imminent (paid for out of your recent 'brokered' M6 sale 😄)? 

(The funniest exchange btw for' me was when bassfan mentioned that the "M6 was on a van" on its way down and a fellow BC'er said that his experience was usually of it being the other way around!). 

Edited January 27, 2019 by Al Krow

[thodrik]

26 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Looking forward to hearing what you think of the WD-800 if / when you get one (and I won't be alone in being interested on that score!)

Is that likely to be imminent (paid for out of your recent 'brokered' M6 sale 😄)? 

(The funniest exchange btw for' me was when bassfan mentioned that the "M6 was in a van" on its way down and a fellow BC'er said that his experience was usually of it being the other way around!). 

It might be later in the year, maybe even next year.

Building a new garage/jam room, redoing the bathroom and first baby being due in late June means bass amps are low on the agenda!

Might treat myself to a pedal though from the M6 proceeds. Thinking about one of either Darkglass Alpha-Omicron or the Alpha Omega. I have the B3K but I’m wanting to get something a bit more raw and dirty.

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, thodrik said:

It might be later in the year, maybe even next year.

Building a new garage/jam room, redoing the bathroom and first baby being due in late June means bass amps are low on the agenda!

Might treat myself to a pedal though from the M6 proceeds. Thinking about one of either Darkglass Alpha-Omicron or the Alpha Omega. I have the B3K but I’m wanting to get something a bit more raw and dirty.

Oooh it seems you and I are currently on a bit of a similar pedal journey (see my most recent post / query on the "new DG amp head" thread).

Love the "building a new garage / jam room" concept. The prospect of having something to store a car in down here in Central London is totally alien! 

[fleabag]

GENZ BENZ shutllemax 9.2

Such goodness. Perfect for my 2 x PJB C4's

[Guest oZZma]

After having tried the M9 I can't get myself to like any other head.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, oZZma said:

After having tried the M9 I can't get myself to like any other head.

Try an Aguilar DB 751

Should be just as good, but double the weight and price of the M9

Oh wait, does that mean that the Mesa is just as good but half the weight and half the price of the Aggie? 😄