bowing technique

[cris the man]

ive just started double bass, and i think im not doing too bad, in terms of piczicato (not too sure on the spelling )
my bowing however is pants, my wrist movement is ok (when bowing left push wrist forward , when bowing right wrist backward)(sorry about the poor vocabulary!) but i seem to get alot of harmonics?

also, how can i really bring out the higher notes on the higher pivot points? (that may be a setup issue)

[endorka]

As you have no doubt discovered, bowing is a very tricky technique; don't expect results quickly!

There are many, many factors involved in getting a good tone with the bow. Off the top of my head;

- bow speed
- bow pressure
- bow placement (i.e. where it meets the string between the bridge and fingerboard)
- bow angle (should be perpendicular to the strings)
- amount of rosin on the bow hair
- tension of bow hair
- a relaxed bow hold
- relaxed wrist, shoulder, forearm and torso.
- amount of hair in contact with the string, i.e. is the bow flat against the string or at an angle?

Failure to get any one of these incorrect can result in poor tone.


[quote name='cris the man' post='317986' date='Oct 29 2008, 10:10 PM']my wrist movement is ok (when bowing left push wrist forward , when bowing right wrist backward)(sorry about the poor vocabulary!) but i seem to get alot of harmonics?[/quote]

When bowing it helps to imagine what you are trying to achieve, rather than focus on the method of acheiving something you are not too sure of. That way you'll know when your moving in the right direction. For example, what is the purpose of this apparent wrist movement? As far as I can ascertain, it is to help get a silent string string moving effectively when you start the bow stroke by exerting a little bit more weight than is used on the rest of the stroke, or a similar thing when changing bow direction.

The point is that you need to "kick" the string a bit to get it going; once it gets going, less energy is needed to keep it going. Rabbath advises that one should not move the wrist; rather, the forearm is moved, and the wrist moves *as a consequence* of the movement of the forearm. The orientation of the fingers holding the bow should also change correspondingly, also as a consequence of the forearm movement.

There are actually other schools of thought on this type of movement, but probably best to stick with the closest one to what you're doing at the moment.

When starting bowing, practice long notes on the open strings. The D string is probably a good place to start.

Is it French or German bow you use?

Do you have a teacher? As I mentioned earlier, bowing is a real skill that takes time and guidance to develop. Reading stuff on the internet is probably not going to get you too far.

[quote]also, how can i really bring out the higher notes on the higher pivot points? (that may be a setup issue)[/quote]

Not sure what you mean by this!

Jennifer

[gilmour]

Go see Jakebass for a couple of lessons - he'll sort you out.

[cris the man]

[quote name='endorka' post='318031' date='Oct 29 2008, 11:19 PM']As you have no doubt discovered, bowing is a very tricky technique; don't expect results quickly!

There are many, many factors involved in getting a good tone with the bow. Off the top of my head;

- bow speed
- bow pressure
- bow placement (i.e. where it meets the string between the bridge and fingerboard)
- bow angle (should be perpendicular to the strings)
- amount of rosin on the bow hair
- tension of bow hair
- a relaxed bow hold
- relaxed wrist, shoulder, forearm and torso.
- amount of hair in contact with the string, i.e. is the bow flat against the string or at an angle?

Failure to get any one of these incorrect can result in poor tone.




When bowing it helps to imagine what you are trying to achieve, rather than focus on the method of acheiving something you are not too sure of. That way you'll know when your moving in the right direction. For example, what is the purpose of this apparent wrist movement? As far as I can ascertain, it is to help get a silent string string moving effectively when you start the bow stroke by exerting a little bit more weight than is used on the rest of the stroke, or a similar thing when changing bow direction.

The point is that you need to "kick" the string a bit to get it going; once it gets going, less energy is needed to keep it going. Rabbath advises that one should not move the wrist; rather, the forearm is moved, and the wrist moves *as a consequence* of the movement of the forearm. The orientation of the fingers holding the bow should also change correspondingly, also as a consequence of the forearm movement.

There are actually other schools of thought on this type of movement, but probably best to stick with the closest one to what you're doing at the moment.

When starting bowing, practice long notes on the open strings. The D string is probably a good place to start.

Is it French or German bow you use?

Do you have a teacher? As I mentioned earlier, bowing is a real skill that takes time and guidance to develop. Reading stuff on the internet is probably not going to get you too far.



Not sure what you mean by this!

Jennifer[/quote]


the bow is unbraneded, my parents got it for my birthday:P

what i mean by the pivot point and higher notes is that when you try and play rather high notes where you have to reach over the body of the bass, i think that might be because of the action between the fingerboard and the string though

my teacher is my normal bass guitar teacher, he happens to play abit of double bass too, hes recommended me getting the rabbath books too.

[velvetkevorkian]

Do you mean the fingerboard beyond the end of the neck, above the octave G (where the 12th fret would be)? If so you're into thumb position which is a whole different ball game as far as left hand technique goes- you would really be best to see a proper DB teacher to make sure you don't get into a lot of bad habits right away.

[daflewis]

[quote name='cris the man' post='317986' date='Oct 29 2008, 10:10 PM']i seem to get alot of harmonics?

also, how can i really bring out the higher notes on the higher pivot points? (that may be a setup issue)[/quote]


The guys are right that a few lessons would be good just to get you going in the right direction, but to help with the immediate problems i would say that you probably need to adjust the position of the bow on the string.

To explain..... There is a sweet spot where you will get the best sound, and for the lower positions this is usually just a bit off the end of the fingerboard

(depending on the sound you want this can be both over the fingerboard [warmer] or very close to the bridge [harsher], though these are more specialised techniques)

the problem with getting harmonics is often simply because you're playing on a (harmonic) node, so simply move the bow slightly toward the bridge and it should disappear. Another thing that can help to eliminate "harmonics" (or squeaks!) is to slow down the bow movement.

a general rule of thumb (particularly in thumb position - excuse the pun!) is, the higher you go up the string, the closer to the the bridge you need to bow and the slower you need to bow - also make sure that you are pressing down the string firmly enough, as this can also cause harmonics (as far as this is concerned it could well be down to the set up of your bass as well as simply the strength in your fingers.)

- i would say experiment with bow speed, position and the weight that you put on the string - keep in mind a simple (Rabbath) idea that you don't try to push the bow into the string, just use the weight of your arm.

That's a lot to explain in a short(ish) post - so if you have any further questions or things are a bit unclear - (it is 2am!!) then please feel free to PM me.

Cheers,

Daf

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='endorka' post='318031' date='Oct 29 2008, 11:19 PM']As you have no doubt discovered, bowing is a very tricky technique; don't expect results quickly![/quote]
I bought a bow from Dougal, which arrived on Thursday.

I've discovered very quickly that Jennifer's comment is very accurate.

OK, time to practice again.

EDIT: BTW, this is an extremely useful thread.

Edited March 20, 2010 by EssentialTension

[Owen]

1. Get some lessons
2. Get some lessons
3. Until you get some lessons, at the very least practice in front of a mirror and make sure your bow is at 90 degrees to the strings. My rule of thumb is that the bow would be halfway between the end of the fingerboard and the bridge, but not knowing your bass makes that difficult because I do not know where the end of your fingerboard is.
4. The further up the fingerboard you go the closer to the bridge you should be. Why are you playing up there? We have cellists to do that stuff
5. What rosin are you using? Are you using enough? Too much? Not enough?
6. Get some lessons.
7. Are your strings suitable for arco?

Making a good arco sound is really, really difficult and takes time. As bass guitarists we get lulled into a false sense of security about good tone. You can achieve a good sound on bass guitar pretty easily. You can achieve a good pizz tone on DB pretty easily. The physics of the pitch being created and the size of the body make it a long process to get a DB to speak quickly, cleanly and strongly. Not wanting to put you off, but it is actually far and away the most difficult thing about playing the DB.

I know nothing about your chosen technique, but I use a German bow and I stand. As far as I am concerned, good sound comes from your back.

Edited March 21, 2010 by owen

[jdstrings]

There's a great book by Knut Guettler (I think it might be published by Yorke?) which details much double bass technique.
It includes a description of the physics of how bowing works. I found it very helpful to know what was going on physically between the bow and string and therefore what leads to good note/tone production and what results in unpleasant noises!!
(They used to have a copy at the City Of London Library at the Barbican if that's any help.....)

Also, as has been mentioned once or twice, some lessons from someone who knows what they are talking about are a good idea...

[PedalB]

Hi,
Would love to be able to offer some fresh advice here ,but really the guys have said it all ,you and your bass need to be checked out by an experienced player , so many different points need to be looked at . For now as your pretty new to the DB don't be worrying about thumb positions , get the basic stuff sorted first .

Good luck

[dougal]

If you're [url="http://www.filmbaby.com/films/60"]loaded [/url]& have no teacher avaiable, you could try "Art of the Bow".

[url="http://artofthebow.com/"]http://artofthebow.com/[/url]

I have seen it and it has some interesting points: although without a teacher to discuss them with I'm not sure how useful or relevant they are.