Horn players and music stands..

[grumpyguts]

We have sax player who tells us he has been playing Hard to Handle for various bands for nearly 50 years. Should I ask him why he can't play it without looking at his notation?

[TimR]

Brass players learn differently to us. Usually they're taught formally and read music.

How many bass players learned formally and read music? Most of us learn by ear. Some use tabs.

It's not an excuse, it's a reason. There's no reason why they shouldn't but I don't think it's on the radar for a lot of them.

[chris_b]

He's probably had 50 versions of the horn part to play.

Is it a problem?

[Steve Browning]

..................... and why do they turn up with 10 minutes to go before you start and hand you their microphone, put their instrument case exactly where you intend to stand and then wander off to the bar while you deal with said mic and then wait for them to be served. They always clear off moments after the last number finishes.

[casapete]

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1497515022' post='3318725']
..................... and why do they turn up with 10 minutes to go before you start and hand you their microphone, put their instrument case exactly where you intend to stand and then wander off to the bar while you deal with said mic and then wait for them to be served. They always clear off moments after the last number finishes.
[/quote]

Because they can.....
Would hazard a guess that most brass players have usually just had to carry their own instrument and little else to a gig,
and don't 'get' the concept of lugging / setting up gear etc. Also as they are usually great readers, some hold other band
members with an amount of disdain perhaps? Also never met a brass player who didn't drink on gigs, which they excuse
by needing 'lubrication'.
Having said all that, I hold a grudging admiration for these guys. I've been fortunate to have worked with some amazing
players over the years, and never ceased to be amazed by what they can do. Have you ever tried to get something out
of a trumpet / sax / trombone? Respect!!

[Steve Browning]

I can actually play a C major scale on a tenor saxophone (that's because my dad was a phenomenal tenor player).

[chris_b]

IME most brass players will have studied formally so they would have been brought up reading charts as the standard approach. Brass sections can be pretty fluid things with a lot of depping so in those cases charts are essential for ensemble playing. IME if they are required to learn their parts good players will, not so good players. . . well, you get what you get.

None of the pro Soul bands I've been in used charts because they always rehearsed and learnt the set. We had a no chart rule in all of them. I've played with every thing from a 2 to 5 piece brass sections, what a wonderful sound.

[grumpyguts]

I probably won't ask him, our guitarist winds him up enough already. We had two sax and one trumpet for our last gig and they sounded great.

Perhaps I'm too simple to understand why having played the same stuff loads of times the notation is still necessary. It also means they cant interact / communicate with the rest of the band members so adding an extra bit on the end of the song (cos the punters are grooving)causes some confusion.

[lowdown]

If he has been playing the same, exact chart for 50 years, I can understand why you think you might need to ask him.
But, different bands, different horn lines ups, playing different harmonies or lead parts,
could mean he has played dozens of different arrangements for different size sections over 50 years.

I have depped in a few pub bands over the years where the horns have never played the Otis Reading version right,
then claimed to be just "doing their own thing",
Perhaps your player has a thing about not messing it up.

[grumpyguts]

Didn't stop him coming in too early for the middle 8 of Respect😅

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='grumpyguts' timestamp='1497507658' post='3318676']
We have sax player who tells us he has been playing Hard to Handle for various bands for nearly 50 years. Should I ask him why he can't play it without looking at his notation?
[/quote]

Because after playing for 50 years he still hasn't got it right lol.
I cant stand bands who have soemone with a music stand on stage. If you cant be bothered to put the time and effort in like the rest of the band, at the expense of looking Ike you haven't, then you arent the right person. I know that sounds harsh, but ive seen so many bands where one or two members spend all night looking at their music stands and i find it looks very unprofessional and makes them look like they arent part of the band.
I know some people play with lots of bands, with different arrangements etc, but even so, thats no excuse for not putting in the hours. We got rid of our last guitarist as he was always looking down at his iPad.

[grandad]

It all depends on what type of band you're in, type of music, fixed or random playlist. Are you putting on a show as in the visual antics being important or just playing background music. Also as you get older you can't remember things like you used to. For 15 years in a covers band I never used a music stand. The last 18 months in a jazz quartet we all do. Myself and the rhythm guitarist sit down as well.

[lowdown]

[quote name='grumpyguts' timestamp='1497536605' post='3318951']
Didn't stop him coming in too early for the middle 8 of Respect😅
[/quote]

[ambient]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1497536696' post='3318953']
Because after playing for 50 years he still hasn't got it right lol.
I cant stand bands who have soemone with a music stand on stage. If you cant be bothered to put the time and effort in like the rest of the band, at the expense of looking Ike you haven't, then you arent the right person. I know that sounds harsh, but ive seen so many bands where one or two members spend all night looking at their music stands and i find it looks very unprofessional and makes them look like they arent part of the band.
I know some people play with lots of bands, with different arrangements etc, but even so, thats no excuse for not putting in the hours. We got rid of our last guitarist as he was always looking down at his iPad.
[/quote]

Totally disagree.

My main band uses 3 different vocalists, each sing in a different key. The repertoire is well over 100 songs. I've also played on cruise ships where the songs are called out as you go along, you're just given two books with all the charts in.

It depends I guess on your gig.

There's a photo I found last time this kind of thread came up, it showed the James Brown horn section on stage complete with music stands.

Edited June 15, 2017 by ambient

[dave_bass5]

Well there we have it, differences of opinion. We all have 'em and that makes the world go around.

Whatever the reason for using them, the fact is i tihnk they distract from the overall visual of a live band, and if its just one or two gives the impression of using deps and not a complete band.

Actually i can understand horn or string sections using them, it seem to be the norm. Im talking more about guitairs/basses etc.

Again, thats how i feel but im sure no one cares less :-)

Edited June 15, 2017 by dave_bass5

[Grangur]

Don't knock it. Glen Miller discovered his "big band sound" through an accident with a horn player and a music stand.

The horn player was going to sit down, his his horn into his teeth as it hit the music stand. From there on the trumpet player took over the horn part and "Big Band" was discovered... not a a lot of people know that.

[scalpy]

If you learn formally then remembering music is a bit like having to remember text. You may have read the latest fender brochure for example many times, but could you recite it? The part to hard to handle, if you're doing the Otis version sounds simple enough, plays ok but looks pretty intimidating. There's loads of syncopation and if you're not used to memorising tunes that would be a pretty hard place to start. Transposition for the brass family isn't as straight forward as it is on guitar type instruments. Brass players don't have the luxury of the geometric patterns we use, and will have to recall the scale, work out the degree, flip it into the new scale and then play. Guitar keys (E, A, D etc) also tend to a complete mare for brass players. Not only are they harder to read, they're a complete pig fingering and blowing wise. That's why jazzers prefer being in Bb etc. Transposes really nicely for horns- they'll be in C or G. Lastly, why do they leg it straight away? I've done many gigs as a bassist in soul bands and many as a trumpeter. Those charts are knackering and by the end of the second set the pain will be excruciating. I'd be off- ski if I was still doing it!

[lowdown]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1497542592' post='3319003']
From there on the trumpet player took over the horn part and "Big Band" was discovered... not a a lot of people know that.
[/quote]

That story about teeth and a music stand, is it a film myth or is it really true ?

The Big Band had been around for a while (although in various sizes). Also, the Glenn Miller 'Signature' sound was Clarinet leading over two Altos and two Tenors.
Short demonstration here, complete with music stands (they must all be deps).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf-Zj59vL5E

[Grangur]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1497548917' post='3319070']


That story about teeth and a music stand, is it a film myth or is it really true ?

The Big Band had been around for a while (although in various sizes). Also, the Glenn Miller 'Signature' sound was Clarinet leading over two Altos and two Tenors.
Short demonstration here, complete with music stands (they must all be deps).

[/quote]
My understanding is it's true. My Dad was a big fan and he understood it as true. But if someone knows different I'm open to learning.

[blue]

[quote name='grumpyguts' timestamp='1497507658' post='3318676']
We have sax player who tells us he has been playing Hard to Handle for various bands for nearly 50 years. Should I ask him why he can't play it without looking at his notation?
[/quote]

Yes, let us know how he responds.

Blue

[bazzbass]

I never understood why it is considered wrong for a player in an original rock band to use charts or cheat sheets yet it's ok for musicians in an orchestra playing 200 year old music for 50 years to still use full charts

[fretmeister]

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1497589219' post='3319236']
I never understood why it is considered wrong for a player in an original rock band to use charts or cheat sheets yet it's ok for musicians in an orchestra playing 200 year old music for 50 years to still use full charts
[/quote]

Because a rock show is a far more visual show.

Imagine Iron Maiden, all stationary, looking at music stands. It just doesn't work.

A rock show is about attitude and movement as well as the music. No movement, no attitude = flat unconvincing performance.

An orchestral performance is 90% listening. Movement would detract from the performance.

[chris_b]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1497599917' post='3319308']
An orchestral performance is 90% listening. Movement would detract from the performance.
[/quote]

Plus they'd all keep falling over each other.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1497604194' post='3319390']
Plus they'd all keep falling over each other.
[/quote]

I suppose we could dig up Bob Fosse and ask him to choreograph for that many people and instruments. He seemed to like a challenge.

[Steve Browning]

I keep seeing (in my mind) that film clip of Woodie Allen playing the cello in a marching band!