Horn players and music stands..

[ivansc]

An awful lot of us who were around in the big band era would have been very disappointed if Ted Heath band had showed up without that impressive array of mongrammed music stands across the front of the stage.

It was and I suppose still is all part of the show - muso bling if you like.
And of course with a huge brass section, you are always going to have deps who NEED to read the parts.

[lowdown]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1497685028' post='3319988']
And of course with a huge brass section, you are always going to have deps who NEED to read the parts.
[/quote]

When sitting through long periods without playing in Orchestra Pits, you also needed somewhere to put your News Paper (or Playboy/Playgirl/Readers Wives mags, or these days, iPad).

[drTStingray]

I play in three bands with sax players (one has three piece brass) - they all to an extent use written parts although two of them don't have music stands when we perform.

Interestingly Hard to Handle is a great soul song with brass, much wrecked by some rock players. We play this (intended to be a soul version) and the sax player brought along a written brass part true to the original - which he found he couldn't use because the rest of the band played it too fast and inaccurately - we now play it correctly and it's so much better. No crunchy guitar parts - it's driven by the bass and drums with typical soul guitar (where the guitar is a supporting instrument rather than an extension of someone's bedroom guitar jangling/crunch which fills all the space like Status Quo!!).

I played this in a jam session recently with our sax player and could see and hear him trying to play the parts - without much joy because the rest of the jammers had no clue what an important part it plays - back to a standard rock dirge I'm afraid.

I don't really worry about brass players using charts - if its the difference between accuracy and approximations i prefer the charts.

Edited June 17, 2017 by drTStingray

[neilp]

It always makes me laugh when people trot out the "why do orchestras use charts to play 200 year old music". Try it. Go on. 2 days rehearsal for, say, a 15 minute overture, 35 minute concerto and a 45 minute symphony. Yes, maybe you've played it all before, but last time you had 2 rehearsals before the gig too. Not every Wednesday night for 8 months. And by the way, you can't just wing it, change your part because you fancy it, or make it up cos you get lost. That sh*t will get you fired. Every note needs to be right, right note, right articulation, right bowing, right phrasing, right dynamics. And guess how many repeated sections there are in, say, Beethoven 9? None. So if you think you can learn a 40 minute symphony in a week, by all means take the piss out of orchestral musicians. It's a different, infinitely more detailed and precise world. That's why they use stands

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1497536696' post='3318953']


Because after playing for 50 years he still hasn't got it right lol.
I cant stand bands who have soemone with a music stand on stage. If you cant be bothered to put the time and effort in like the rest of the band, at the expense of looking Ike you haven't, then you arent the right person. I know that sounds harsh, but ive seen so many bands where one or two members spend all night looking at their music stands and i find it looks very unprofessional and makes them look like they arent part of the band.
I know some people play with lots of bands, with different arrangements etc, but even so, thats no excuse for not putting in the hours. We got rid of our last guitarist as he was always looking down at his iPad.
[/quote]

Easy to say if you only play in one band, which is probably your hobby anyway. Orchestras, big bands and many others use the dots. Are you really saying the look "unprofessional"?

[bassace]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1497542592' post='3319003']
Don't knock it. Glen Miller discovered his "big band sound" through an accident with a horn player and a music stand.

The horn player was going to sit down, his his horn into his teeth as it hit the music stand. From there on the trumpet player took over the horn part and "Big Band" was discovered... not a a lot of people know that.
[/quote]

Are you serious?

[grumpyguts]

My initial post isn't intended as a criticism of musicians in orchestras, deps etc. Its simply an observation that when looking at pub and function bands that have a brass section the horns tend to use notation.

Maybe its a cultural thing with brass players correctly taught to read etc, perhaps playing without the music in front of them is just not comfortable. I have done dep gigs an learn my stuff, as I cant sight read I have no option.

I wonder if concentrating on the notation takes away a bit of the enjoyment of gigging. I like to pull a face at the drummer just for a laugh, if I'm staring at a chart I couldn't do that.

[Bilbo]

Another aspect of this phenomenon is the 'other gigs'. That orchestra gig described above could be followed by a big band gig two shows and a studio session. Remembering material is a discipline that is confined to small self contained acts or lengthy bookings like tours and is not universal amongst jobbing pros.I love charts myself because I find one or two rehearsals more confusing than helpful.

[chris_b]

Deps will probably use charts and regular players may or may not. It isn't about good or bad, better or worse. The difference is rehearsals and band policy.

[TimR]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1497787851' post='3320547']
Another aspect of this phenomenon is the 'other gigs'. That orchestra gig described above could be followed by a big band gig two shows and a studio session. Remembering material is a discipline that is confined to small self contained acts or lengthy bookings like tours and is not universal amongst jobbing pros.I love charts myself because I find one or two rehearsals more confusing than helpful.
[/quote]

Totally agree. Turn up, play the music, next...

[tauzero]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1497542592' post='3319003']
Don't knock it. Glen Miller discovered his "big band sound" through an accident with a horn player and a music stand.

The horn player was going to sit down, his his horn into his teeth as it hit the music stand. From there on the trumpet player took over the horn part and "Big Band" was discovered... not a a lot of people know that.
[/quote]

I'm impressed that the trumpet player knew clarinet as well, and indeed that the horn player had decided to play the trumpet.

If the myth is true, the trumpet player hurt his lip and Miller put the clarinettist in to play the trumpet part. If the myth isn't true, Miller decided that a lead clarinet would differentiate his sound from everyone else's.

[gjones]

In one of the bands I play in, the singer also plays guitar. She said to me that she taught herself guitar, as an adult, but was given formal piano lessons as a child and that she can only play piano when she has sheet music in front of her, as this is how she was taught. She can't improvise or play by memory, however simple the song is.

She only needs the sheet music when she plays piano, by the way, not guitar.

I've heard this many times from classically trained musicians and I always find it very, very weird.

Edited June 19, 2017 by gjones

[lowdown]

Classical musicians are sometimes labelled as having no ears, or can't remember musical material.
Quite often they are playing in sections. Within that section they might be playing divisi parts, or just one note in a chord, they might be just playing a melody in parts,
or playing part of a melody/harmony, then changing Octave while another Instrument takes over. They may well be playing Ostinato passages for a long period consisting of loads of bars.
or just block chords (sometimes all this can be within one piece). Different tempo markings to contend with.

Add to that, various articulations & dynamic markings, along with possibly many bars of tacet, it's an awful lot of info to take in.
So it's not like you are just trying to remember three chords of a Blues Twelve bar. Music and music stands are very much needed, there is far to much to remember for a large repertoire.

As a side note, usually a classical soloist is playing from memory without a chart, most of that piece has more notes and sections than the repetition you would normally get in most pop/rock Basslines,
and it does take a lot of work to take it all in.

Edited June 19, 2017 by lowdown

[Dad3353]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1497855824' post='3320823']...
She only needs the sheet music when she plays piano...
[/quote]

That's because she has learned 'songs', and not 'music'. It's like reciting a poem and writing poetry; quite different activities. Both respectable, but different.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Dad3353

[chris_b]

She's learnt to [i]interpret[/i] music from the dots. In a musical sense these guys are extreme athletes. They are very talented but they can only expresses what is written. If you tell someone who has had this training to "make it up" they can't - because they have never been trained to do that.

I used to know Stephane Grappelli's drummer and he (and the band) used to dread the gigs when Yehudi Menuhin used to get up and play, because he couldn't play with them. They had to play with him and it wasn't Jazz. He was in perfect time, which ruined everything straight off, then his "solos" were all worked out and, while being musically perfect, sounded terrible with no feeling and no swing.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1497685028' post='3319988']
An awful lot of us who were around in the big band era would have been very disappointed if Ted Heath band had showed up without that impressive array of mongrammed music stands across the front of the stage.
[/quote]

IMO this is the way to go if your horn section has to have music stands. Make them an important visual part of the stage set.

[Guest Jecklin]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1497871060' post='3320936']


IMO this is the way to go if your horn section has to have music stands. Make them an important visual part of the stage set.
[/quote]

Excellent advice!

[EssentialTension]

Music stands could have same image/pattern as the kick drum front skin.