Copyright for Arrangements of Jazz Standards

[AdamWoodBass]

Hey everyone

Apologies if this has been covered before but I tried searching and couldn't find a topic that answered my question. I'm looking for some advice on copyright, specifically how to legally go about recording a version of a Jazz Standard without the heavies turning up at the door and a subsequent legal a*se kicking being visited upon us.

Here's the scenario:

In the same way that for example Jamie Cullum did a cover of Radiohead's "High and Dry" which is very different to the original, my originals band have been working on an arrangement of a Jazz Standard which again is in a very different style to the original. It would be really cool to be able to record it but I recognise that this is a potential legal minefield.

In terms of the Jamie Cullum example I recognise that the record label will have deployed an army of lawyers to ensure no copyright laws were infringed. It's also possible that Jamie Cullum's label and Radiohead's label are owned by the same legal entity so technically the rights to the song are with the label. Hence Mr Cullum can do his best Radiohead impression until the cows come home with no fear of getting a spanking from a lawyer because his label already technically owns the copyright. I also understand that in my very limited knowledge of legislation and copyright in the music industry my analogy could also be complete b*%$*cks.


The problem is I'm not a solicitor, music solicitors cost a fortune and we're an unsigned originals band so I don't really know where to start in terms of finding an answer to this question! Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing?

As always, you advice and guidance is very much appreciated!

Cheers

Adam

[lowdown]

Are you in the MU ? Maybe call them.

Of course, if you know the name of the publisher, or can find out, call or Email them.
After all, a lot of the Jazz standards are just covers of old show tunes which would have been cleared through publishers.
Depending on how old the tune is, it might now be in the public domain (although highly unlikely, but you never know).

Edited June 15, 2017 by lowdown

[Hazy Bass]

I'm not an expert, but from what I recall from recording a couple of CDs of jazz & blues covers back in the 1990s there's no requirement to get permission to record anyone else's songs, but you will need to register the recording (along with names of the songwriters) with the PRS and potentially pay royalties on any sales, depending on the quantities. For small production runs (which is what we were doing) which are primarily intended as promotional copies with maybe small numbers of sales at gigs etc there was a one-off royalty payment when we registered the CDs ... but as lowdown says above - the MU will know everything you need to know.
I believe copyright expires after something like 70 years ... so some of the older jazz standards may no longer be covered

[AdamWoodBass]

I think this very scenario is good enough reason to renew my MU membership actually. No doubt back in the day there'd be plenty of chancers that would just record it and get away with it but now music is nso freely available on Spotify etc it would surely only be a matter of hours before your crimes against copyright are brought against you. Just not worth the risk, I want to make sure that whatever we're doing we're doing it properly.

[Monkey Steve]

It's a very odd system that you can record a song note for note like the original (i.e. completely rip off the original version) and that's fine as long as you credit and pay the composers, but if you want to change the arrangement you must ask permission from the copyright holder and they can say no (I seem to recall Noel Gallagher refusing permission for the Wombles to do an Oasis cover)

If in doubt contact PRS and they can probably put you in contact with the copyright holder.

[lowdown]

∆∆∆

I think you will always need permission to record other folks published music, live is different of course.

Adam, some excellent info here.
[url="http://www.makeitinmusic.com/licence-cover-song/"]http://www.makeitinm...nce-cover-song/[/url]

Edited June 15, 2017 by lowdown

[AdamWoodBass]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1497540119' post='3318979']
∆∆∆

I think you will always need permission to record other folks published music, live is different of course.

Adam, some excellent info here.
[url="http://www.makeitinmusic.com/licence-cover-song/"]http://www.makeitinm...nce-cover-song/[/url]
[/quote]

Good shout, cheers mate!

[Bilbo]

My understanding is that expressed above by hazy bass. You register the recording and pau based on expected sales which, for you, will probably be minimal. Jazz cds on the UK rarely sell into triple figures

[hubrad]

As above, but IIRC it's MCPS for recording while PRS is for performance or broadcast. Might have all changed, mind!

[bazzbass]

oh, so you're just pretending to be an originals band then?

joking, sort of. Rely on the strength of your own body of work. This from an originals band member for 36 years. Certainly play the cover at gigs, but don't record it.

imho ymmv of course, just my 2 cents worth.

[lowdown]

I was under the impression, regardless of registering a cover with a collection agency, that you will still need permission.
I.E. You will need a "mechanical license". Some tunes (or their publishers) will not grant this.

"The mechanical licence;
To be able to release your song, you’l need something called a Mechanical Licence. This is the permission you need from the publisher for you to record and distribute the song that they own the rights to".

If in doubt, always contact the publisher. In this day and age it just a simple Email.

Edited June 16, 2017 by lowdown

[AdamWoodBass]

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1497590470' post='3319241']
oh, so you're just pretending to be an originals band then?

joking, sort of. Rely on the strength of your own body of work. This from an originals band member for 36 years. Certainly play the cover at gigs, but don't record it.

imho ymmv of course, just my 2 cents worth.
[/quote]

Yeah it's only early days yet for this band, we're planning to record an EP of sorts in the near future. We don't have enough original material to fill a 12 track album yet and have filled out the live set with a couple of covers which we play in "our style". There's one which we're pretty proud of so thought we'd investigate the ramifications and potential pitfalls of recording it.

[Dad3353]

There are many originals bands playing covers, and doing a fine job of it. 'The Man Who Sold The World', done by Nirvana..? 'I Shot The Sheriff', Clapton version..? The list is long. Play and be proud of whatever you wish, I'd say.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='hubrad' timestamp='1497563787' post='3319197']
As above, but IIRC it's MCPS for recording while PRS is for performance or broadcast. Might have all changed, mind!
[/quote]
Technically it's one and the same now as it's the PRS&MCPS Alliance. PPL are the totally different body these days.

My understanding is for recording you need permission, for a performance you just tell the PRS that the song was performed at said venue on said day, and the venue should supply a rough head count and then the PRS will pay the according people at the right time

[fretmeister]

Cullem will have paid Radiohead money for being able to cover the song. How much is ip to Radiohead.

Apparently Run DMC only earned $5000 from their cover of Walk this way - Aerosmith got the rest of the earnings.

[AdamWoodBass]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1497631693' post='3319691']
Cullem will have paid Radiohead money for being able to cover the song. How much is ip to Radiohead.

Apparently Run DMC only earned $5000 from their cover of Walk this way - Aerosmith got the rest of the earnings.
[/quote]

Would it not have been Cullum's label paid Radiohead's label? I know that's semantics but in this topic semantics matter don't they? Not trying to be facetious about it, it's really complex when it comes to actual legal entities being that either Radiohead the artist owns the copyright or the label which Radiohead are signed to owns the copyright.

I know nothing about this sort of stuff and find the whole legal landscape quite intimidating!

[fretmeister]

[quote name='AdamWoodBass' timestamp='1497637448' post='3319747']


Would it not have been Cullum's label paid Radiohead's label? I know that's semantics but in this topic semantics matter don't they? Not trying to be facetious about it, it's really complex when it comes to actual legal entities being that either Radiohead the artist owns the copyright or the label which Radiohead are signed to owns the copyright.

I know nothing about this sort of stuff and find the whole legal landscape quite intimidating!
[/quote]

Of course that is possible.

It's also possible that the writers of the music have sold the mechanical rights and publishing rights separately. Or kept one and not the other.

The point is, we don't know. All we know or at least can guess with some accuracy, is that there will have been a fee.

The semantics are only applicable to an individual matter and not a general rule to be assumed for relationships between other artists and their labels.

However the basic rule remains the same: someone (it matters not who) owns the rights to a piece of music. Anyone else who wants to do more with it than play it in a pub will need to obtain permission.

That permission might be cheap or expensive. It might be free. It might cost your house. The point is you don't know, and you won't know until you locate the rights holders and ask them. Some artists love covers and allow it for £1. Some don't allow it at any price.

If you find the rights holders (easy) then they are most likely to offer you terms. After all they want other ways of making money from their product.

They will send you a contract. It might be good terms. It might be horrific.

If you sign it without getting advice from a music lawyer then you are mental.

[fretmeister]

So - write to the label.

No emails, do it properly so you get written responses to keep.

Ask them how you would get their permission for it. They will tell you their process - or will inform you of the rights holders if it is not them.

1 step at a time. Don't pay anything, don't sign anything, don't agree to anything without getting professional advice.

[AdamWoodBass]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1497641509' post='3319782']
So - write to the label.

No emails, do it properly so you get written responses to keep.

Ask them how you would get their permission for it. They will tell you their process - or will inform you of the rights holders if it is not them.

1 step at a time. Don't pay anything, don't sign anything, don't agree to anything without getting professional advice.
[/quote]

Excellent advice and very well noted.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Copyright is pretty complex, here is the simple version boiled down from lots of different sources - I'm not a copyright lawyer, and much of the available information about these issues is US centric, so this may be incorrect.

Recording a cover version doesn't require permission, but it does require a mechanical license.

If you want to use someone elses recording in whole or in part then you need to get permission, whether it is to use a sample in a song or to use the music in a film/tv ad.

If you want to make a parody version, then you need to get permission.


In the US the licensing situation is very straightforward, you go to the Harry Fox Agency and buy a license that covers you for a set amount of physical copies/digital downloads.

In the UK you have to deal with MCPS/PRS and they have a much more convoluted system, which refers only to % of published dealer price, which appears to be geared to esablished labels/businesses and not independant artists, but they do have a phone number you can ring, so it might be worth contacting them with some pertinent questions, and then get confirmation in writing if you want to proceed.

I suspect that the stumbling blocks are likely to be issues of administration
- how do you establish published dealer price if you are just selling CDs at gigs/through your own website(would you need to also sell through something like cdbabay/bandcamp to legitimise your pricing),
- will your license for physical sales cover digital sales as well and what are your responsibilities if you license for a set number of physical copies and digital sales drive up your overall sales numbers, would you need to make the cover version exclusive to the physical product,
- does the band need official status as a business etc, if not what happens in the event of the band splitting, will the person who bought the license be liable if digital copies continue to sell.

so before you run this by an expensive lawyer(or use your MU legal assistance) the first port of call should be a conversation with the MCPS/PRS, you can find their number at the bottom of the webpage.

https://prsformusic.com/licences/releasing-music-products/retail-audio-products