Dead and Buzzy spot on new guitar

[DanH71]

So,

Recently picked up a cheap jazz copy (potentially a low line Chinese Tokai)
And noticed that between frets 15-17 on the A and D there was a noticeable dead spot and buzziness
There (E and G strings are more or less fine there). I have since put on some tapewounds (D'Addario ETB92 ) and lowered the action a little to compensate for the extra tension and they sound good apart from at the same location the buzziness and deadness is accentuated and worse.

The frets look fine and there is no visible damage to the board:

I understand that some tapewounds require trust rod adjustment but the set I got don't need this apparently and anyhow; the issue was there before when I had the metals on so it's not just because of the set change.

Is there anything I can do about this in terms of adjustments or do I just have a duff neck?

Thanks
D

[gary mac]

You say the frets look fine but have you checked them with a straight edge? If not, that's the first thing I would be doing, to see if there is a high fret or two.

[DanH71]

hey Gary Mac,

no I have not checked them with a straight edge..so thanks. will try that when I get the chance. if they are not straight, how could I level them?

other than that, are there any other possible reasons and fixes that could cause such a thing?

cheers
Dan

Edited June 16, 2017 by DanH71

[gary mac]

[quote name='DanH71' timestamp='1497610286' post='3319444']
hey Gary Mac,

no I have not checked them with a straight edge..so thanks. will try that when I get the chance. if they are not straight, how could I level them?

other than that, are there any other possible reasons and fixes that could cause such a thing?

cheers
Dan
[/quote]

If you find a high fret, then it will need to be filed down to the same height as the neighbouring frets. After that it will need crowning to give it a rounded profile.
Specialist files are available but for a one off I would probably make do with a decent file and varying grades of sand paper.

[DanH71]

found this should anyone else ever need this info:

http://www.fretrefinishing.com/

will do this [minus the patented tool;] to my problematic area after checking the levels.

[DanH71]

[quote name='gary mac' timestamp='1497614611' post='3319496']
If you find a high fret, then it will need to be filed down to the same height as the neighbouring frets. After that it will need crowning to give it a rounded profile.
Specialist files are available but for a one off I would probably make do with a decent file and varying grades of sand paper.
[/quote]

cheers..

buying some paper now..

[gary mac]

Good luck with it.

Slowly, slowly and keep checking, you don't want to be taking off too much

[DanH71]

[quote name='gary mac' timestamp='1497618887' post='3319558']
Good luck with it.

Slowly, slowly and keep checking, you don't want to be taking off too much
[/quote]

don't fret! i will tread very carefully

thanks

Edited June 16, 2017 by DanH71

[Twincam]

[quote name='DanH71' timestamp='1497615052' post='3319504']
found this should anyone else ever need this info:

http://www.fretrefinishing.com/

will do this [minus the patented tool;] to my problematic area after checking the levels.
[/quote]

Terrible method! I actually started to type out the reasons why, but it was turning into an essay.
I suppose on a cheap bass it might be ok and for minor adjustment. But even then if you only need a few frets doing its going to significantly take life off the other frets for no reason. Especially if the few frets that need doing are very high and need low grades of paper.
I was laughing my arse off at the bs string lifting and weird tuning procedure. I could write a long post on why that alone is wrong, And how it will effect the leveling if the frets.
And never mind the issue of recrowning. Ok if you prefer flat frets I suppose.

Please if anyone reads this don't do anything in that vid. It might work somewhat but it won't be a good job.

[HowieBass]

Fret buzz at the 'dusty' end is often due to having too much relief in the neck - have you checked the relief? I would never lower the action to compensate for higher tension strings; that's what the truss rod is for. You might be having problems with the A and D strings if the action is rather lower than the E and G, what kind of heights have you got the strings at?

[DanH71]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1497637650' post='3319750']


Terrible method! I actually started to type out the reasons why, but it was turning into an essay.
I suppose on a cheap bass it might be ok and for minor adjustment. But even then if you only need a few frets doing its going to significantly take life off the other frets for no reason. Especially if the few frets that need doing are very high and need low grades of paper.
I was laughing my arse off at the bs string lifting and weird tuning procedure. I could write a long post on why that alone is wrong, And how it will effect the leveling if the frets.
And never mind the issue of recrowning. Ok if you prefer flat frets I suppose.

Please if anyone reads this don't do anything in that vid. It might work somewhat but it won't be a good job.
[/quote]

Twincam, do you have an alternative method on how it should be done?

[DanH71]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1497639302' post='3319765']
Fret buzz at the 'dusty' end is often due to having too much relief in the neck - have you checked the relief? I would never lower the action to compensate for higher tension strings; that's what the truss rod is for. You might be having problems with the A and D strings if the action is rather lower than the E and G, what kind of heights have you got the strings at?
[/quote]

Cheers for the input HowieBass.

I don't know what relief is;)

As for string height it's roughly 5mm to centre of E string from bridge pickup (8mm from body). G is similar and A and D are slightly higher (say1.5mm).

[HowieBass]

I usually go by Fender's recommendations https://support.fender.com/hc/en-us/articles/214343843-How-do-I-set-up-my-bass-guitar-properly-

If you don't have a set of feeler gauges then a business card (not a plastic credit card) is about 0.012" thick. The neck should have enough relief in it to allow strings to vibrate and not hit the frets so you should see a slight forward bow. I'd make sure the bass was set up correctly before you start trying to file down frets; you might find that with the correct adjustments the fret buzz disappears entirely.

[DanH71]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1497650581' post='3319871']
I usually go by Fender's recommendations https://support.fender.com/hc/en-us/articles/214343843-How-do-I-set-up-my-bass-guitar-properly-

If you don't have a set of feeler gauges then a business card (not a plastic credit card) is about 0.012" thick. The neck should have enough relief in it to allow strings to vibrate and not hit the frets so you should see a slight forward bow. I'd make sure the bass was set up correctly before you start trying to file down frets; you might find that with the correct adjustments the fret buzz disappears entirely.
[/quote]

Thanks
Will check that out!

[Twincam]

I agree with HowieBass it could be a setup issue.
I wrote this a while ago it might help you.

Here is an easy way to set up a bass, with household tools that should give you a very playable bass and a pretty standard setup.
Tools need are a 4mm or 3/16 Allen key for the truss rod (assuming its 4mm), a 2.5 mm or 3/32 allen key and a 2mm allen key. Also a small allen key or small flat head screwdriver for the bridge saddle adjustment. Finally a standard business card like the ones from a taxi company not a plastic credit card etc they are too thick.

Of course if you can invest in the correct tools but this method is fine for getting a bass in playing condition, for someone with limited tools.

First tune your bass normally then fret at the first fret and then with your elbow of your right arm hold down the e string at about the 17th fret. This is so you can check the relief of the neck, place the business card corner first in between the top of 7th fret of the E string while its still held down at the first and last frets. It should slide in nicely with a tiny hint if drag, if it doesn't fit in as the gap is too small then the neck is too straight and needs more relief, if it fits in but there is also any gap the neck has too much relief (too bent). the card should just fit in there nicely maybe a very slight drag.
Business cards tend to be around .010 - .015" in size which is around about the average in most factory specs for relief. If you tighten the truss rod turning it right it will make the gap smaller, left for increasing the gap. This is of course while your looking at the nut right on if your holding the bass tightening looks like your going left and vice versa!. Assuming the truss rod access is in the headstock.
Ok so turn the allen key small turns at a time, then check the relief as above, remember each time you tighten or loosen the truss rod you must put the A string back and re tune all the strings so you get an accurate reading of the relief. Its time consumming and can sometimes be a pain in the butt, but has to be done right.

Once you have the relief set, then we adjust the bridge saddle to alter the final string action (height).

There are a two different areas to measure the string height at the 12th and 17th fret i suggest if you play hard we go for the measurements at the 12th if you play lighter the 17th fret. There is also of course the fact nearly everyone likes a different string height but, 2.5mm - 2mm is about standard. To measure the height get your 2.5mm or 3/32 allen key and i will assume you have chosen to measure from the 12th fret. and without fretting the string measure the height of the E string from top of the fret to the bottom, and adjust at the bridge saddle so again the allen key slides nicely in and out with very slight drag. Make sure the bridge saddle is level it does not need to be angled, also while taking measurements make sure the bass is in relatively the same position you play, as necks move slights amounts at different angles. Ok So once the E is at 2.5mm or 3/32 you can set the A, D and G in this way with the smaller 2mm Allen key the final G string should be 2mm. So maybe E and A could be 2.5mm and D and G 2mm in height from the top if the 12th fret to the bottom of the string.
And again after every single small movement of the strings you make at the bridge every time before the height is rechecked it need to be put back into tune.

The bass other than now needing to be intonated should be in very reasonable playing condition. Feel free to set the string height higher or lower, but using allen keys or even drill bits do a good job of measurements. 4mm is the heightest action that could be considered playable, under 2mm is low but the lower you go the more buzzing you might get if you hit the strings hard. Under 2mm requires a more gently touch.

Buzzing from frets 1 to 7 indicate too little relief, buzzing in the higher frets indicate to low an action, buzzing all over might indicate just that your playing too hard for the setup.

Then you would set intonation, and recheck the string heights (adjust if needed) if the intonation was well off it will change string height on adjusting. Sometimes you have to go back and forth a bit, setting the action and intonation.

[DanH71]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1497658083' post='3319922']
I agree with HowieBass it could be a setup issue.
I wrote this a while ago it might help you.

Here is an easy way to set up a bass, with household tools that should give you a very playable bass and a pretty standard setup.
Tools need are a 4mm or 3/16 Allen key for the truss rod (assuming its 4mm), a 2.5 mm or 3/32 allen key and a 2mm allen key. Also a small allen key or small flat head screwdriver for the bridge saddle adjustment. Finally a standard business card like the ones from a taxi company not a plastic credit card etc they are too thick.

Of course if you can invest in the correct tools but this method is fine for getting a bass in playing condition, for someone with limited tools.

First tune your bass normally then fret at the first fret and then with your elbow of your right arm hold down the e string at about the 17th fret. This is so you can check the relief of the neck, place the business card corner first in between the top of 7th fret of the E string while its still held down at the first and last frets. It should slide in nicely with a tiny hint if drag, if it doesn't fit in as the gap is too small then the neck is too straight and needs more relief, if it fits in but there is also any gap the neck has too much relief (too bent). the card should just fit in there nicely maybe a very slight drag.
Business cards tend to be around .010 - .015" in size which is around about the average in most factory specs for relief. If you tighten the truss rod turning it right it will make the gap smaller, left for increasing the gap. This is of course while your looking at the nut right on if your holding the bass tightening looks like your going left and vice versa!. Assuming the truss rod access is in the headstock.
Ok so turn the allen key small turns at a time, then check the relief as above, remember each time you tighten or loosen the truss rod you must put the A string back and re tune all the strings so you get an accurate reading of the relief. Its time consumming and can sometimes be a pain in the butt, but has to be done right.

Once you have the relief set, then we adjust the bridge saddle to alter the final string action (height).

There are a two different areas to measure the string height at the 12th and 17th fret i suggest if you play hard we go for the measurements at the 12th if you play lighter the 17th fret. There is also of course the fact nearly everyone likes a different string height but, 2.5mm - 2mm is about standard. To measure the height get your 2.5mm or 3/32 allen key and i will assume you have chosen to measure from the 12th fret. and without fretting the string measure the height of the E string from top of the fret to the bottom, and adjust at the bridge saddle so again the allen key slides nicely in and out with very slight drag. Make sure the bridge saddle is level it does not need to be angled, also while taking measurements make sure the bass is in relatively the same position you play, as necks move slights amounts at different angles. Ok So once the E is at 2.5mm or 3/32 you can set the A, D and G in this way with the smaller 2mm Allen key the final G string should be 2mm. So maybe E and A could be 2.5mm and D and G 2mm in height from the top if the 12th fret to the bottom of the string.
And again after every single small movement of the strings you make at the bridge every time before the height is rechecked it need to be put back into tune.

The bass other than now needing to be intonated should be in very reasonable playing condition. Feel free to set the string height higher or lower, but using allen keys or even drill bits do a good job of measurements. 4mm is the heightest action that could be considered playable, under 2mm is low but the lower you go the more buzzing you might get if you hit the strings hard. Under 2mm requires a more gently touch.

Buzzing from frets 1 to 7 indicate too little relief, buzzing in the higher frets indicate to low an action, buzzing all over might indicate just that your playing too hard for the setup.

Then you would set intonation, and recheck the string heights (adjust if needed) if the intonation was well off it will change string height on adjusting. Sometimes you have to go back and forth a bit, setting the action and intonation.
[/quote]

Twincam that's amazing. A very clear and concise how to so thanks!

I tried last night adjusting bridge saddles and trust rod to get rid of the buzz on the A and D strings between the 15-17 frets and have been able to reduce it to the 16th fret on the D but at the expense of quite a high action. I didn't measure it but I'd guess it was around 3/3.5 mm which is quite hard to play with the tense tapewounds on.

I tried tightening the trust rod to lower the action but that introduced excessive buzz. I also tried loosening the trust rod and reducing the saddles height but so far it's the best I can get with the least buzz (at the specified location).

Would like to bring the string height down though so will try again with your method.

I did try a level on the problem frets but felt no rocking or could see no difference in height.
I did notice however that by fretting the 16th fret on the D for example and playing it that the string was touching the 17th fret,
Where as if I did it with other frets there would be a clear gap between the string and next fret up, so perhaps this is the problem. Perhaps I need to take back the height on the 17th fret..?

[Twincam]

I think it pretty much sounds like you have a few high frets.
Sometimes you can't feel or see it and you said you felt no rocking? I assume you tried with a credit/bank card over three frets. Sometimes its harder to detect using a plastic card. Really you need a metal fret rocker.
There's a few options. Have a go at the frets yourself, its only a inexpensive bass so might be a good option.
Or take it to someone in the know or a local guitar tech. There's also a stickied thread in the section of basschat members willing to help other bc members. If your in the North East I'm one of them.

[HowieBass]

[quote name='DanH71' timestamp='1497694347' post='3320070']

I tried tightening the trust rod to lower the action but that introduced excessive buzz. I also tried loosening the trust rod and reducing the saddles height but so far it's the best I can get with the least buzz (at the specified location).

Would like to bring the string height down though so will try again with your method.

[/quote]

I can't tell from what you've said if you've tried a setup where you first get the relief right and then set the action but you shouldn't be using the truss rod adjustment to lower the action - the truss rod adjustment is used to set the relief which is different from the action (which is set using the saddle height adjustment screws).

[DanH71]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1497721978' post='3320270']
I think it pretty much sounds like you have a few high frets.
Sometimes you can't feel or see it and you said you felt no rocking? I assume you tried with a credit/bank card over three frets. Sometimes its harder to detect using a plastic card. Really you need a metal fret rocker.
There's a few options. Have a go at the frets yourself, its only a inexpensive bass so might be a good option.
Or take it to someone in the know or a local guitar tech. There's also a stickied thread in the section of basschat members willing to help other bc members. If your in the North East I'm one of them.
[/quote]

Cheers twincam, I think this is the case. I will try a gentle shaving of the suspected fret.
I'm in E17 so if I can't sort it I may take you up on your kind offer!

[DanH71]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1497727852' post='3320304']


I can't tell from what you've said if you've tried a setup where you first get the relief right and then set the action but you shouldn't be using the truss rod adjustment to lower the action - the truss rod adjustment is used to set the relief which is different from the action (which is set using the saddle height adjustment screws).
[/quote]

Yeh your right. In truth I was probably swinging between the two. So I will try again getting the relief right with your guide and then go on to lowering the action.

Much appreciated!

[DanH71]

So update;)

Used twincams guide to get a nice relief (my neck was too bent) so this has now enabled to get me a lower sting to board height. I tweaked the action to a comfortable feel and still have a problem fret that is not as buzzy and ok for now. I have a piece of sandpaper taped to the bass so overtime I can try shaving back the following fret overtime knowing not to go to hard on this!

Thanks to all for your help!