BigRedX Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1497983490' post='3321810'] I'd say they are still operating in the frequency area that is easier to get out front to the audience even if it's a horrible sound, I know that's not what you want to hear, you want to point out about mics for guitarists rather than crap Di boxes but that's life, chances are if there's two minutes to spare to run the fx pedals through the foh the guitarist will get them, you might get time for a clean and a dirty each if your lucky, 150 presets that all sound great in the practice room, nah forget it [/quote] If the band has spent the time in the rehearsal room fine-tuning the individual sounds of the instruments, so that they form a coherent mix then all the sound engineer needs to do is make everything louder (if required depending on the overall gig volume). That way any EQ on the desk should be just to compensate for the characteristics of the PA speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1497983620' post='3321812'] Fwiw I'd say keys have it just as bad as us, one song they sound great and cut through just nice, the next one they are just a weird phazey mush. [/quote] I've never got this idea that instruments need to "cut through" the mix. IMO the only things that need to cut through are the lead vocals, and possibly any instrument carrying the main melody of the song when there are no vocals. Everything else should fit together to form a coherent and balanced sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1497972582' post='3321733'] The way I see it is that a good old fashioned vanilla sound that everyone out front can enjoy is better than a salted caramel with hand twirled toffee sauce that can only be enjoyed by the player and maybe the front row, there's nothing worse than seeing a band with a generic but great bass sound then on the third song he applies "his sound" with the pedal board or whatever never to be heard again Flea is the worst person for it and I presume he and his crew know a thing or two, how a sound guy at a festival is going to keep up with all your patches that he's never heard before with a fifteen minute band change over I'll never know but hey it's "your sound" [/quote] I'm using pitch shifting, delays, fuzz, wah etc. it's just not an option to give the soundman a totally clean DI. Obviously if you've never used anything but a straight clean bass sound this might sound weird but try to imagine Muse or Royal Blood with a straight clean DI to the desk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SH73 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1498043961' post='3322160'] I think EBS_freak post should have had a :-) after it. It was more a comment your (or your device's) inability to spell "Peavey" [/quote] It's not inability; it's the predictive text and laziness of typing as you say. I've realised after the post but I'm too lazy to correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1498044144' post='3322162'] If the band has spent the time in the rehearsal room fine-tuning the individual sounds of the instruments, so that they form a coherent mix then all the sound engineer needs to do is make everything louder (if required depending on the overall gig volume). That way any EQ on the desk should be just to compensate for the characteristics of the PA speakers. [/quote] Every room has totally different characteristics, you can't always set up where you want, different band members use different kit to suit the venue size, hollow stage and an empty room or a packed marquee, if it was as easy as you say we wouldn't need a sound crew, just a master volume knob! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1498044390' post='3322165'] I'm using pitch shifting, delays, fuzz, wah etc. it's just not an option to give the soundman a totally clean DI. Obviously if you've never used anything but a straight clean bass sound this might sound weird but try to imagine Muse or Royal Blood with a straight clean DI to the desk [/quote] I used to use a zoom fx back in the day with auto wah,fazer,fuzz etc the results varied from venue to venue, often there just wasn't time to alter the gain and settings for each patch to suit each gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1498044285' post='3322164'] I've never got this idea that instruments need to "cut through" the mix. IMO the only things that need to cut through are the lead vocals, and possibly any instrument carrying the main melody of the song when there are no vocals. Everything else should fit together to form a coherent and balanced sound. [/quote] Exactly so a muse style song with heavily processed bass needs to cut through to carry the melody, even the pro bands struggle to achieve it sometimes so a multi band gig in the tickled trout are always going to struggle ime, I'd probably rather hear the songs with a couple of bass sounds that might not be as epic as they are at rehearsal than not hear the bass at all, or an overly loud fuzz from the stage because the backline has been cranked above the foh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1498046495' post='3322187'] I used to use a zoom fx back in the day with auto wah,fazer,fuzz etc the results varied from venue to venue, often there just wasn't time to alter the gain and settings for each patch to suit each gig. [/quote] Maybe if you spent hours getting everything set just right, with some creative EQ and compression, and an amp or an amp with speaker simulated DI output, on flat studio monitors, you'd have had better results? It works for me anyway (on multi band originals gigs). If my sound is too boomy for the room, they can EQ that out. They won't have to re EQ every time I change sound as I have them all levelled out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1498046247' post='3322185'] Every room has totally different characteristics, you can't always set up where you want, different band members use different kit to suit the venue size, hollow stage and an empty room or a packed marquee, if it was as easy as you say we wouldn't need a sound crew, just a master volume knob! [/quote] And if you could fix room acoustics (a mostly time domain problem) with EQ (a frequency domain solution), recording studios would need to spend thousands of pounds on fancy acoustic treatment. They could simply slap a 31 band stereo graphic equaliser across the master outputs of the desk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1498048362' post='3322202'] Maybe if you spent hours getting everything set just right, with some creative EQ and compression, and an amp or an amp with speaker simulated DI output, on flat studio monitors, you'd have had better results? It works for me anyway (on multi band originals gigs). If my sound is too boomy for the room, they can EQ that out. They won't have to re EQ every time I change sound as I have them all levelled out [/quote] Exactly this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1498046495' post='3322187'] I used to use a zoom fx back in the day with auto wah,fazer,fuzz etc the results varied from venue to venue, often there just wasn't time to alter the gain and settings for each patch to suit each gig. [/quote] I gigged for the first time with my new band on Saturday. I have separate patches for each song on my BassPod (multiple where required) which have been adjusted to suit the guitar and keyboard sounds of the rest of the mix. At the gig most of them slotted in exactly where they should have done in the mix. A few didn't and they'll be tweaked again at the next rehearsal, and I'll see how it goes to the gig after that. After a few more rehearsals and gigs all my sounds will be exactly where I need them in terms of EQ and relative clarity. It's not particularly difficult to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1498055922' post='3322248'] ...It's not particularly difficult to do. [/quote] I don't know I'd say that I find it fairly easy these days, but it took a LOT of experience to get there. So many times I got an awesome sound in the studio, turned up to the gig and the sound sucked. In that situation I would just tweak the sound but that's easier to do with my using separate pedals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Again exactly, I'm not saying it can't be done but often it's just time you haven't got on the gig these days I'm happy to go with this so called vanilla sound for what I do, my awful playing will hold me back more than my awful tone anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bam Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) I agree that if you use different effects and patches everyone would want that replicating - hence a micd amp or di after effects. But, I can also see from the sound man's angle - what if the post effect di sound he gets is absolutely terrible? Mushy, messy, incoherent etc - then he's be getting the blame and there wouldn't be much he could do about it. It's be easier taking a mix of either 2 di's or a di and a mic'd up one. Edited June 21, 2017 by la bam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 That would probably be my preferred choice these days, clean di for clarity and a nice even mix then blend the micd amp in, if it's good the sound guy can always put more amp ratio out front. Also saves you looking an idiot when both your SVTs fail at the same time and you've got nothing during a Soundgarden gig too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillento Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1498048362' post='3322202'] Maybe if you spent hours getting everything set just right, with some creative EQ and compression, and an amp or an amp with speaker simulated DI output, on flat studio monitors, you'd have had better results? It works for me anyway (on multi band originals gigs). If my sound is too boomy for the room, they can EQ that out. They won't have to re EQ every time I change sound as I have them all levelled out [/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 [quote name='la bam' timestamp='1498058248' post='3322276'] I agree that if you use different effects and patches everyone would want that replicating - hence a micd amp or di after effects. But, I can also see from the sound man's angle - what if the post effect di sound he gets is absolutely terrible? Mushy, messy, incoherent etc - then he's be getting the blame and there wouldn't be much he could do about it. [/quote] So if the keyboard player is using a dodgy patch on the synth is it the sound mans fault because he didnt take a midi out and use a "better" sound ?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bam Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) In the opinion of the audience - yes. It's upto the individual sound guy to decide whether to let the bands be responsible for their sound, or do what he can to mitigate such (albeit rare) events. Some couldn't care less and will say "cr4p in = cr4p out", and others will go to the opposite extreme. Edited June 21, 2017 by la bam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 If I was playing with one of my bands in particular, and the soundman refused to take the DI from my pedalboard, and demanded a clean DI from the bass, I'd just walk. The sound of the band would no longer make sense, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 If only there was a simple solution. I'd love to be mixing for a bassist (or guitarist!) who came to me with all their fx sorted out along with amp and speaker sims. In practice they often come along with a collection of separate fx, don't even think about how they interact, have any idea about gain structure or even which of their interconnects was the dodgy one last week. Even with multi fx they can set thing up so the tone is what they want but the noise levels are horrendous. Not a problem with a band you work with regularly but in one of these multi band things you've got minutes to decide whether you are dealing with a sublime technician or a flaky ego. Miking up a speaker isn't ideal, ever. Moving the mic even a couple of cm across the cone will change the tone I'm picking up, I'm not going to get much sound from the ports and the mic itself will alter the tone so it's never going to sound the way it does to you. Even once I've got the tone close I've watched the musician who can't hear the PA decide they know better and move the mic, or just trip over the stand! Every mic on stage adds to the general noise floor and the risk of feedback from some weird resonance so most engineers try to keep mic's down to a minimum. The biggest problem though is always the human one. Drummers who will move an overhead to put in their favourite cymbal, guitarists who soundcheck with one guitar then use a different one for the gig, singers swapping vocal mics. People wandering off stage without a soundcheck. It's all a bit like herding cats. So, if you are happy with a generic (vanilla?) bass tone you're probably best served by a DI. If you use a variety of tones tell the sound engineer and offer them a post eq DI. Most decent engineers will be perfectly happy with that. Personally if someone has programmed in all their patches I'm going to be fairly confident they know what they are doing, if they are doing it on the fly with a load of gaffa taped stomp boxes then less so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Interestingly used to get the complete opposite problem when I was playing guitar live. My amp is a Hughes & Kuttner Tube 50 with a built-in Red Box DI. Despite the fact that I knew from experience in the studio that the DI sound was all but identical to mic'ing up the speaker with a Shure SM57 (and TBH I thought DI sounded very slightly better), trying to persuade most PA sound engineers that I wanted to use the DI output of my amp instead of putting a mic on it could be a somewhat frustrating exercise. Added to this was the fact that I didn't use any particularly high-gain sounds and the band played at a relatively low on-stage volume, which mean that when I did want to get feedback sustain, I would have to be very close to the speaker in order for this to happen. The presence of a mic in front of the amp could make all the difference between getting the guitar to feed back or not. Several times at multi-band gigs I would find by the time the band came to play the DI from the sound check had been replaced by a Mic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 well obviously there are idiot musicians and there are idiot soundmen The other night this guy came over to the bass amp with a kick drum mic. Bearing in mind he'd used a snare drum mic to mic the kick drum, I was quite surprised to find he actually had a kick drum mic. Anyway, the bassist and I shouted at him "look, there's a DI out on the amp" but he just got really confused saying that plugging his XLR into the amp wouldn't work and he needed to put a mic in front of the amp. In the end I grabbed the cable off him, plugged it into the bass amp and told him to turn it up. He seemed pretty surprised that it worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1498118098' post='3322564'] If I was playing with one of my bands in particular, and the soundman refused to take the DI from my pedalboard, and demanded a clean DI from the bass, I'd just walk. The sound of the band would no longer make sense, [/quote] What if he asked for one before and one after? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1498119652' post='3322578'] If only there was a simple solution. I'd love to be mixing for a bassist (or guitarist!) who came to me with all their fx sorted out along with amp and speaker sims. In practice they often come along with a collection of separate fx, don't even think about how they interact, have any idea about gain structure or even which of their interconnects was the dodgy one last week. Even with multi fx they can set thing up so the tone is what they want but the noise levels are horrendous. Not a problem with a band you work with regularly but in one of these multi band things you've got minutes to decide whether you are dealing with a sublime technician or a flaky ego. Miking up a speaker isn't ideal, ever. Moving the mic even a couple of cm across the cone will change the tone I'm picking up, I'm not going to get much sound from the ports and the mic itself will alter the tone so it's never going to sound the way it does to you. Even once I've got the tone close I've watched the musician who can't hear the PA decide they know better and move the mic, or just trip over the stand! Every mic on stage adds to the general noise floor and the risk of feedback from some weird resonance so most engineers try to keep mic's down to a minimum. The biggest problem though is always the human one. Drummers who will move an overhead to put in their favourite cymbal, guitarists who soundcheck with one guitar then use a different one for the gig, singers swapping vocal mics. People wandering off stage without a soundcheck. It's all a bit like herding cats. So, if you are happy with a generic (vanilla?) bass tone you're probably best served by a DI. If you use a variety of tones tell the sound engineer and offer them a post eq DI. Most decent engineers will be perfectly happy with that. Personally if someone has programmed in all their patches I'm going to be fairly confident they know what they are doing, if they are doing it on the fly with a load of gaffa taped stomp boxes then less so. [/quote] This is much closer to my personal experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1498132641' post='3322686'] What if he asked for one before and one after? [/quote] yeh if he wanted both and was going to cross them over to get clean lows that'd be fine, as long as the effects are prominent I don't mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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