Why can't singers sing in the original key?

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1499243913' post='3330175']
every time I have the misfortune to here Macca sing live these days I do wonder why he doesn't drop down a tone he's obviously struggling to hit the notes and there's no shame in it, lots of singers voices go deeper with age, either he just doesn't listen to people or surrounds himself with yes men
[/quote]

Because there's always an exception: I believe John Fogerty's voice might have got slightly higher with age. When I saw him a few years ago, he appeared to be playing Proud Mary in E - either that, or he makes his entire band tune down a whole tone...

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1499259297' post='3330334']
Because there's always an exception: I believe John Fogerty's voice might have got slightly higher with age. When I saw him a few years ago, he appeared to be playing Proud Mary in E - either that, or he makes his entire band tune down a whole tone...
[/quote]I realise there are exceptions, Daltry and Jagger etc, but Macca isn't one of them, it's painful to hear him trying to hit the high notes these days

[bassjim]

Yes annoying isn't it?

I think when performing covers, changing the key is something that goes with the territory so you may as well get musically equipped to deal with it.

I find with bass parts, some tunes suffer for it and some tunes can even sound better for it. Sometimes changing key can go in your favour. Like, off the top of my head, Chaka Khans' Aint NoBody going up a semi tone from Eb to E or Rock With You by MJ up a semi tone for example.

I prefer a 4 over a 5 string and for some singers these tunes would mean I de tune my E string to Eb, and rethink my fingering, which ok, isn't that big a deal but when you don't have bother......ect ect.

But bottom line is if the singer can sing but needs it in another key then that's where you have to go. We (my reg band) find if something just doesn't work in another key we accept it and move on. Loads to choose from.

[M@23]

On the flip side to the OP, I hate it when people (guitarists, usually) get fussy and won't change key despite being asked for the singer's sake.

[M@23]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1499183142' post='3329782']
Five string bass, job done.
[/quote]

Though I do agree, it helps and I use them for that reason...
'A bit of basic theory, job done' might be more pertinent!

[essexbasscat]

Enrico Caruso never sang outside his range, wouldn't risk damaging his voice.

To the OP. Try learning to sing yourself, you will soon have the answer

Edited July 5, 2017 by essexbasscat

[la bam]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1499278203' post='3330513']

To the OP. Try learning to sing yourself, you will soon have the answer
[/quote]

In which case I'd then choose a set from the thousands of songs that were in my range, sound great in that key, and not 25 that werent

(hopefully people can see this is just a light hearted thread - of course I get the key change necessity and can do it easily). although I stand by the opinion not every song sounds good when changed.

Edited July 5, 2017 by la bam

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='M@23' timestamp='1499275554' post='3330487']


Though I do agree, it helps and I use them for that reason...
'A bit of basic theory, job done' might be more pertinent!
[/quote]

True but Eb on the five is going to sound more in keeping with a typical song with lots of open E string notes played on a four than a four with the Eb played up on the 6th fret A string of a four string bass imo. Generally I prefer a fretted E on the B string these days too.

[dmccombe7]

They just haven't evolved yet

Dave

[ivansc]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1499241663' post='3330145']
What's your definition of a musician?

(FWIW, I have to transpose on the fly all the time.)
[/quote]

Most of the people I have come across over the years who have attitudes about accommodating other player`s shortcomings refer to themselves as (Insert specific instrument here) players rather than musicians. Which pretty much sums up that particular attitude for me.

Musicians play the tune as best they can together with other musicians. players are basically into their own bit (especially solos) to the exclusion of just about everything else.
Anyone else have any thoughts on that assessment?

[ivansc]

[quote name='la bam' timestamp='1499245299' post='3330194']
Id say im enough of a musician to use my ears to realise that a lot of songs don't work or simply lose effect when you raise or drop the key, regardless of how good the singer then sings them.
[/quote]
With respect, have you tried re-voicing the chords in the sngs that dont seem to work? I have found that a lot of stuff is really that simple.
One song I do was written in D with a dropped bottom E. I do it in B in straight tuning & it works fine.

[Phil Starr]

I do wish people wouldn't use the term musician as a way of criticicising anyone with less knowledge/skill than themselves, it's one of those 'irregular verbs': I'm a musician, you are a 'player' and he's a total amateur. OK hands up those people with nothing left to learn.

I'm glad to see people mentioned fatigue as a factor for vocalists and amazed it took so long before someone talked about the crossover points in someone's vocal range. There's more too, a song has points where the vocal line needs to be strong for the words to convey meaning or have emotional impact. Think of Harry Nillson singing 'Can't live' in Without You if he couldn't do the big lift at 1min 20, it would be a very ordinary song wihout that (see what I did there)

There are situations where transposing songs is easy and sometimes almost impossible. If you are using an open string to give yourself time to do a hand shift in the middle of a run then you aren't going to welcome a key change. Sometimes you can just play a note an octave higher sometimes that won't work. For a guitarist chord inversions sometimes work and sometimes not, playing with the capo above the 5th fret is often really awkward as you are trying to jam four fingers into a very small space. Eb is always troublesome unless you re-tune but a 'nice' key for brass instruments.

The reality in the end though is that it is the singer most of the audience will notice and remember. A good singer with a band who are doing little more than keeping time and marking the chord changes is going to be blow away the tightest most technically accomplished band with a singer who is struggling, so until someone perfects the neck capo for vocalists.......

Edited July 6, 2017 by Phil Starr

[ricksterphil]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1499263208' post='3330378']
I realise there are exceptions, Daltry and Jagger etc, but Macca isn't one of them, it's painful to hear him trying to hit the high notes these days
[/quote]

I think Daltry is struggling too...mind you a lot of WHO songs are very high and hard to sing and hard to transpose without tuning down a semi-tone. Jagger seems to be as good as he always was (maybe better?)

[wateroftyne]

..and let's not even mention poor 'ol Geddy Lee. :-(

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1499329677' post='3330728']
I do wish people wouldn't use the term musician as a way of criticicising anyone with less knowledge/skill than themselves, it's one of those 'irregular verbs': I'm a musician, you are a 'player' and he's a total amateur. OK hands up those people with nothing left to learn.

I'm glad to see people mentioned fatigue as a factor for vocalists and amazed it took so long before someone talked about the crossover points in someone's vocal range. There's more too, a song has points where the vocal line needs to be strong for the words to convey meaning or have emotional impact. Think of Harry Nillson singing 'Can't live' in Without You if he couldn't do the big lift at 1min 20, it would be a very ordinary song wihout that (see what I did there)

There are situations where transposing songs is easy and sometimes almost impossible. If you are using an open string to give yourself time to do a hand shift in the middle of a run then you aren't going to welcome a key change. Sometimes you can just play a note an octave higher sometimes that won't work. For a guitarist chord inversions sometimes work and sometimes not, playing with the capo above the 5th fret is often really awkward as you are trying to jam four fingers into a very small space. Eb is always troublesome unless you re-tune but a 'nice' key for brass instruments.

The reality in the end though is that it is the singer most of the audience will notice and remember. A good singer with a band who are doing little more than keeping time and marking the chord changes is going to be blow away the tightest most technically accomplished band with a singer who is struggling, so until someone perfects the neck capo for vocalists.......
[/quote]am I a player or musician? never thought of myself as a musician (can't read music and my theory is shaky) but I write songs and can play bass in a band that does a 2 hour set and play accoustic guitar and sing at open mics, but don't earn a living from playing, do I care? not a jot.
Yes it's the singer's most important, the melody line and the lyrics are what people mostly, latch onto, that's why singers get most of the attention

[casapete]

[quote name='ricksterphil' timestamp='1499330703' post='3330743']
I think Daltry is struggling too...mind you a lot of WHO songs are very high and hard to sing and hard to transpose without tuning down a semi-tone. Jagger seems to be as good as he always was (maybe better?)
[/quote]

Saw Tom Jones recently. 77 years old and his voice is sounding better than ever. His range doesn't seem
to have suffered at all with his advancing years, and the material sounded in the original keys too I think.
Bruce Springsteen still sounding like he can still do it as well, although his delivery may have altered a bit.

Despite these few notable exceptions, it's totally unrealistic though to expect these older artists to be able to perform like
when in their 20's/30's. Surprised nobody has mentioned the effect of age on more our senior bassists yet.....

[fretmeister]

[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1499177509' post='3329720']
Quite. A vocal has a range. A song which sounds great with one voice (the one of whoever wrote it, say) might sound wrong with another. A shunt in one direction or another might bring the song alive for the singer in question.

A far better thing to ask might be about why some musicians are so fixated on the importance of the key a song was originally written in.
[/quote]

This. In spades.

The OP reads a lot like someone who has never sung.

It's akin to demanding that a bassist play a low D on a 4 string tuned EADG.

What do you mean you can't do it? What do you mean your instrument doesn't do it? Why are you crap at your instrument?

[stingrayPete1977]

I saw Soundgarden a couple of years ago, Chris Cornell's voice was excellent still, the recent album is great too, such a shame

[cheddatom]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1499332668' post='3330764']
This. In spades.

The OP reads a lot like someone who has never sung.

It's akin to demanding that a bassist play a low D on a 4 string tuned EADG.

What do you mean you can't do it? What do you mean your instrument doesn't do it? Why are you crap at your instrument?
[/quote]

I think the OP was more asking why singers want to do songs if the original is so far out of their range. A better analogy would be a bassist who only played 4 string basses and would not drop tune, and yet demanded the band covered drop-tuned metal songs, but several tones higher

[la bam]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1499341356' post='3330835']


I think the OP was more asking why singers want to do songs if the original is so far out of their range.
[/quote]

Exactly!!

Twenty million songs to choose from, and they choose ones they can't sing!

Edited July 6, 2017 by la bam

[Dan Dare]

Let's think about this for a moment. The "original" key was simply the one that suited the artist who originally recorded a song. It isn't set in stone and there is no law that states a song must be performed in the "original" or any other key... Songs may well have been written by the composer in a completely different key to the one that they were recorded in. All the talk of singers "not being able to sing" certain songs is nonsense, I'm afraid. Peoples' voices - particularly the ranges of those voices - are the ones they were born with. Vocal training, etc may help them to be more versatile, but It is inescapable that they will be able to sing more comfortably (and therefore better) in certain keys. As musicians, it's up to us to adapt to them, so that the performance is as good as it can be. Try doing session work and insisting that you will only play songs in certain keys. You'll likely get little work (and certainly nobody will call you twice).

[Dad3353]

Depends on whether they're 'tuned' to 440 or 438, maybe..?

[cheddatom]

[quote name='la bam' timestamp='1499342204' post='3330843']
Exactly!!

Twenty million songs to choose from, and they choose ones they can't sing!
[/quote]

Obviously the answer is that they like the song and think their band should be able to easily transpose it, which is reasonable IMO.

The problem comes when you have a particularly fast guitar riff that depends on a load of open strings, and in that case it's probably better to not bother as you'll all be taking a load of instruments in different tunings

[ivansc]

@Phil Starr: I only use the two terms to differentiate between people who just want to play (and be good on ) their chosen instrument and others who for whatever reason want to play in a band because of the music itself rather than what they personally are playing.
No intent to denigrate the players, as there are umpteen out there who I have relied on to make my own musical stuff great.
But there IS a difference between players who are there to serve the music and people who dont care what they play, so long as it serves the song.
I am in the middle of reverting to singer/guitarist status and am really happy to have a guitar player working with me who is both a player AND a musician. A rare combination. Plus I am egotistical enough to be happy that I have a bass player who plays scarily like me.

Edited July 7, 2017 by ivansc

[mentalextra]

Judging by the amount of chart music where huge amounts of autotune are applied deliberately making the artist sound like a robot, i fear for the future of singing?