Vanderkley are better than Barefaced cabs, right?!

[Wolverinebass]

Hey cheers for coming back to me on that. I think what you're saying isn't that Markbass cabs are particularly good, but they're "good enough" and that you can make them work for you. That all makes good sense. Good enough is well, good enough. And the rest is down to how we play our basses!

You mention the Barefaced finish / appearance and that, for me, is probably the single biggest factor that makes folk hesitate about getting BF gear. I get that we are going to have different views on this. But IMHO there are some things that we can all agree on as being objectively well designed, for example very few people would say that an iPhone is anything but a great looking piece of kit, yes?

It's clear from Cuzzie's thread that DG have whizzed a lot of folk off with their outlandish pricing for a bunch of overweight cabs that they are not even making themselves, but a number of my fellow BCers have commented on how good those DG cabs look.

So here's the thing. If BF cracked this one aspect of design and maybe road tested some great new designs for their Gen 4 cabs so they had something that looked (objectively) great as well as sounded great, I just kinda feel they would clean up even more so than they are doing now.

Just a thought. I'll shut up and get back in my box now...

If Alex sorted out the finish, he'd have my money. It's that simple. Having played the Big Twin 2, it's just devastating. Even Merton's 1x10 was brilliant.

I should qualify, that used for a 4 string, the Markbass cabs are fine. However, the sort of of bi-amp system that I use to distort the top end for a 12ver or an 8 and let's just say, having a programmable 31 band EQ seriously helps. Never having tried it with a different cab(s) I don't know if it's typical, but I suspect that it's the piezo tweeter.

As for the Darkglass cabs. Pfft. I don't care how good they look. You'll only be able to look at them as firstly, you won't be able to afford them and secondly, you won't be able to lift them as they weigh more than an aircraft carrier. I hasten to add, I've played them. There was no way in hell that you could tell if they were any good given the ludicrous amount of distortion that they were putting through them. Even the clean sound on the M900 was pretty wooly. I couldn't tell if that was the amp setting once the distortion was switched off or the cabs. Naturally, I won't know, but I certainly couldn't objectively evaluate them.

If you say compare them to the old Bergantino CN series which had the graphite effect tolex, that to me in theory, had the whole package. They sounded great, weighed very little and had an understated bit of presentational class shall we say with the tolex. Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[Cuzzie]

So you have tested them in the wild, and they are not great.

Thanks for that, I know it’s one persons opinion Wolverine, but I know from our conversations we have similar thoughts.

[CameronJ]

So you have tested them in the wild, and they are not great.

Thanks for that, I know it’s one persons opinion Wolverine, but I know from our conversations we have similar thoughts.

+2. If they were great cabs then you'd have probably been able to tell fairly quickly, even if the EQing was a bit off. Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[Al Krow]

Just found out that Bass Gallery in Camden stocks both VK and BF cabs. (And seems if pick up a BF cab there, I can avoid the extra £30 delivery charge - which is a bonus).

The volume thing
I won't be able to test this point out easily when I go there, so grateful if I could pick your brains. Having done my research (and thanks for ALL your input on this thread everyone and for putting up with all us non experts Alex!) my top two contenders from VK and BF, in the same price bracket (£700 to £750) are the:

VK 210 MNT 600W - can order this in 4ohm, 37 lbs

BF BB2 - 800W 8 ohm, 26 lbs with the silver cloth grille (29 lbs with the metal)

I have an amp head that can comfortably throw out 400W at 4 ohms, this would be (other things being equal) 200W at 8 ohms

A 2x10 has approximately 40% more speaker surface area than a 1x12 (I'm sure one of you engineers will be able to come up with a more accurate ratio!)

Would it be fair to expect the VK 210 to be 4 to 5 db louder than the BF BB2 when I have my amp set on the same volume dial setting for both?

The BB2 wins hands down on weight but if the VK is just going to be louder, whilst not driving my amp head any harder, then that's going to be an important factor to take into account for me.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[DiMarco]

Would it be fair to expect the VK 210 to be 4 to 5 db louder than the BF BB2 when I have my amp set on the same volume dial setting for both?

That is oversimplifying things. The motor in the bb2 speaker has a large max excusion. Combined with the very light but stiff cone this causes the speaker to still sound very clear and detailed at LOUD volume. I do not know how the speakers in the VK will behave for sure, but I expect cone distortion at volumes where the BF still sounds tight.

Cone distortion can be a good thing though, depending on the tone you're after.

This will however have a big impact on how well your sound punches through the mix.

Again, all depends on what you are after. Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[Jack]

Whilst I can't really help with your specific question, I would like to point out that speaker area isn't too important by itself, it's also speaker excursion.

Speakers move forward and back, so rather than moving a circle of air they actually move a cylinder. A 12" has a little over double the surface area of an 8", but if the 8" can move 6mm and the 12" can only move 3mm then actually they can move pretty much the same amount of air.

Have fun with the cabs! My guess would be that both will get VERY loud with the right amp, but 200-400W isn't a great deal these days, so whether either will get loud enough is anyone's guess.

[Cuzzie]

As above with excursion

Also dispersion is a key and how it behaves on axis, off axis etc.

It’s a minefield (sort of)

Simply put to my simple head.

Get an amp that has enough power to drive your sound in the places you play.
Get a cab you like the weight sound and look of that can handle it (or vice Verda, match the amp to the cab!)
Pair em together and bob’s your Uncle.

If you play big venues, you’ll need to DI to a PA as well maybe mic’d or from an amp/box/pedal

Edited October 8, 2017 by Cuzzie

[Al Krow]

This thread has been a really helpful one for me and the BF BB2 and VK 210 MNT are now right at the top of my list for Spring 2018 (or sooner if I can flush a decent condition second hand one out of the woodwork - you may have seen my ads on the wanted thread!) And I hope Alex and Marc have not found it disrespectful to their excellent products: this was very much meant to be an exploration of two of the very best cab brands in the market place!

One thing I'm slightly intrigued by is that from this thread a number of Barefaced users have gone over to Vanderkley and clearly been happy with their move across, but I've not heard many (any?) stories of folk going in the opposite direction i.e. from VK to BF, or returning to BF having tried and owned a VK in between? Is that correct? And is that perhaps simply down to a lot more folk of my fellow BCers owning BF cabs in the first place?

[Roland Rock]

This thread has been a really helpful one for me and the BF BB2 and VK 210 MNT are now right at the top of my list for Spring 2018 (or sooner if I can flush a decent condition second hand one out of the woodwork - you may have seen my ads on the wanted thread!)

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/313883-barefaced-g3-big-baby-2-bb2/page__pid__3393350#entry3393350 Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[Al Krow]

Roland Rock said:

http://basschat.co.u...50#entry3393350

 

Thanks for that. In fact there are now two BB2s up for sale in the FS. A bit like London busses eh, wait ages for one to turn up...
 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[M@23]

Thanks for that. In fact there are now two BB2s up for sale in the FS. A bit like London busses eh, wait ages for one to turn up...

I've got a date in the diary planned to head over the Bass Gallery in Camden where I can spend a bit of quality time with both the BF and Vanderkley cabs in stock there (and maybe see what the fuss is about the TKS cabs is at the same time!) before taking the plunge, as I'm hoping that this will be a long term love affair and not a brief encounter...

I've got a Trickfish Bullhead 1K, in mind, as the amp head to pair with whichever cab, but I'm going to have to do that a little "blind" as I'm not sure they're stocked anywhere in the UK and I only know of one other BCer with a Trickfish (he absolutely loves it). I'm also then going to need to part with my beloved Markbass AC 121 Lite Combo to make way for the new rig, so a fair bit involved here for me!

Don't think they carry TKS? Spending some time A/B'ing against your combo is good idea. Least then you'll have a good reference point. Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[mcnach]

This thread has been a really helpful one for me and the BF BB2 and VK 210 MNT are now right at the top of my list for Spring 2018 (or sooner if I can flush a decent condition second hand one out of the woodwork - you may have seen my ads on the wanted thread!) And I hope Alex and Marc have not found it disrespectful to their excellent products: this was very much meant to be an exploration of two of the very best cab brands in the market place!

One thing I'm slightly intrigued by is that from this thread a number of Barefaced users have gone over to Vanderkley and clearly been happy with their move across, but I've not heard many (any?) stories of folk going in the opposite direction i.e. from VK to BF, or returning to BF having tried and owned a VK in between? Is that correct? And is that perhaps simply down to a lot more folk of my fellow BCers owning BF cabs in the first place?

Before I bought my first BB2, the 210MNT was in my list too, as well as a Schroeder (I forget the model number). Jorg Schroeder was VERY helpful and we exchanged several emails. He was also offering to make import costs a lot more palatable out of his own initiative The only reason I didn't go with him was that the shipping costs would be too large if I decided it wasn't for me and wanted to return it. I had owned a Schroeder cab before and I loved it... and I like the guy... but in the end it was between BF and VK.

I went with BB2 because of their returns policy, and because I managed to try one locally and I liked it a lot.

So I bought it, and was happy enough with it. Later on I got to hear/try a pair of 210MNT and I think they were more my thing, but a pair of BB2 were mighty enough and didnt feel like changing. However I never was in love with the BB2. I no longer own the BB2 pair, and have a pair of BF Two10... and these ones I do *love*. Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[largo]

How much “more” does the 2xTwo10 give compared to a single Two10. Very tempted to upgrade from my 2xOne10 but it would have to be worth it to make me carry the extra weight 😂

[fftc]

How much "more" does the 2xTwo10 give compared to a single Two10. Very tempted to upgrade from my 2xOne10 but it would have to be worth it to make me carry the extra weight

You've now got me wondering how 3 One10s would sound! Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[Guinness21]

Is it worth throwing the name Bergantino into the mix? Never been impressed by Barefaced cabs personally, impressed by the Vanderkley cab I tried but preferred the Bergantino.

[Al Krow]

Is it worth throwing the name Bergantino into the mix? Never been impressed by Barefaced cabs personally, impressed by the Vanderkley cab I tried but preferred the Bergantino.

Could I get you to elaborate a bit on why BF have never impressed you but why VK have and Bergantino even more?

Certainly a lot of love for Bergs on this forum in times past, but lack of UK dealership, high prices and weight would seem to rule them out as an option? I'd really like something that can comfortably handle 600W RMS and is around 37lbs or less (and is a great cab). My options from my research so far seem to be either a BF BB2 or SuperT or a VK 210 MNT. But if there are others that meet my two key criteria of power and weight (and are also a high quality cab / speaker cone & driver), I'd love to hear about them. Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[mcnach]

How much "more" does the 2xTwo10 give compared to a single Two10. Very tempted to upgrade from my 2xOne10 but it would have to be worth it to make me carry the extra weight 😂

Quite a bit.
On stage it's great even if not required to be very loud. I've used the pair on big stages where they were just for monitoring and I have always been happier than when using just one. Unnecessary at times, but they're so easy to take anywhere that I'll use a pair whenever logistics are favourable.
Having said that, on Friday I played a small bar with my 6-piece ska band using a single Two10, and it was just fine.
When relying on them, without PA reinforcement, two cabs vs one makes a very noticeable difference.

Why are you wondering? If you wonder, I guess you feel you wish you had a bit more 'oomph'... in which case you'll probably like the effect of a second Two10. Do you still have the A3? My pair of Two10 cabs fit snugly in the boot, with room for amplifier, pedals, stand, etc... Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[largo]

I just miss something with the 2 x One10's but can't quite put my finger on it. Not sure if I can justify almost £700 for another Two10 though!

[Al Krow]

VK210 MNT vs Barefaced BB2 – Shootout

I had the opportunity to spend an hour A/B’ing a VK 210 MNT with a BF BB2, my top two shortlisted cabs, at Bass Gallery this afternoon with CameronJ along to provide a second pair of ears. These two were at the top of my shortlist because they delivered (i) portability (both less than 37 lbs in a compact package) (ii) excellent power handling – able to deal with 600W RMS and (iii) from all of the feedback to date, two excellent cabs with great articulation and both with many devotees. Even better, the Gallery had my current beloved gigging combo (a Markbass AC 121 Lite) available for us hear how these two shortlisted cabs compared to my existing rig, which was a very helpful bonus.

Main bass used for the comparison: Cameron’s MTD Kingston Super 5. EQ set on the Markbass head, which is essentially a LM3: (i) initially slightly mid boosted and (ii) then flat (for most of the comparison). We obviously used exactly the same settings on the bass head to compare the Markbass cab, the VK and the BF. Volume was set at about 35% of maximum on the 500W head.

First thing to note was a clear improvement in articulation when swapping from the Markbass 1x12 to either the VK 210 or BF BB2. That slight muddiness of tone that I’ve felt for a while with the Markbass cab seemed to disappear with the other two cabs. But, hey, if you’re going from a £400 Markbass cab to a £750 VK or BF cab you’d kinda hope that you were going to be getting something better, right?

So having quickly established that either of the two separate cabs would give a better result than the combo cab we spent the rest of the time going back and forth between the VK and BF.

Conclusions (and I think this is a fair summary of what we both heard):
(i) Both had excellent articulation, if anything the VK slightly edged it.
(ii) At the same amp settings used the VK was a little louder and had more punch in the mids. It was also a little more coloured than the transparent BF but in a good way which seemed to aid rather than detract from articulation.
(iii) Interestingly changing the voicing of the cabs with the rear ‘crossover’ knobs at the back didn’t materially change our overall views on the sound.
(iv) In terms of build the VK seemed to have a more robust ‘feel’ to it and we both agreed that the VK’s handle is certainly of much better design and construction.
(v) Both handled the low B on the MTD Kingston effortlessly.

Two really excellent cabs and I get why folk are happy with either. It was great to be able spend the time having a careful listen to both (although I appreciate it’s not a comparison of the cabs in a live context nor done at loud volume) with a fellow BCer and combined with the positive feedback on this thread, I’ve finally (you’ll no doubt be pleased/ relieved to hear!) been able to come off the fence and decide on a cab which I hope will form a key part of my rig for several years to come. I have just confirmed to another BCer who had kindly put his VK cab on hold for me that I’ll be going ahead with the purchase.

Cheers everyone for your patience, honest feedback and insights – greatly appreciated. AK

Edited November 26, 2017 by Al Krow

[Deedee]

VK210 MNT vs Barefaced BB2 – Shootout

I had the opportunity to spend an hour A/B’ing a VK 210 MNT with a BF BB2, my top two shortlisted cabs, at Bass Gallery this afternoon with CameronJ along to provide a second pair of ears.

These two were at the top of my shortlist because they delivered (i) portability (both less than 37 lbs in a compact package) (ii) excellent power handling – able to deal with 600W RMS and (iii) from all of the feedback to date, two excellent cabs with great articulation both with many devotees.

Even better, the Gallery had my current beloved gigging combo (a Markbass AC 121 Lite) available to for us hear how these two shortlisted cabs compared to my existing rig, which was a very helpful bonus.

Main bass used for the comparison: Cameron’s MTD Kingston Super 5.
EQ set on the Markbass head, which is essentially a LM3: (i) initially slightly mid boosted and (ii) then flat (for most of the comparison). We obviously used exactly the same settings on the bass head to compare the Markbass cab, the VK and the BF.
Volume was set at about 35% of maximum on the 500W head.

First thing to note was a clear improvement in articulation when swapping from the Markbass 1x12 to either the VK 210 or BF BB2. That slight muddiness of tone that I’ve felt for a while with the Markbass cab seemed to disappear with the other two cabs. But, hey, if you’re going from a £400 Markbass cab to a £750 VK or BF cab you’d kinda hope that you were going to be getting something better, right?

So having quickly established that either of the two separate cabs would give a better result than the combo cab we spent the rest of the time going back and forth between the VK and BF.

Conclusions (and I think this is a fair summary of what we both heard):

(i) Both had excellent articulation, if anything the VK slightly edged it;

(i) At the same amp settings used the VK was a little louder and had more punch in the mids. It was also a little more coloured than the transparent BF but in a good way which seemed to aid rather than detract from articulation.

(ii) Interestingly changing the voicing of the cabs with the rear ‘crossover’ knobs at the back didn’t materially change our overall views on the sound.

(iii) In terms of build the VK seemed to have a more robust ‘feel’ to it and we both agreed that the VK’s handle is certainly of much better design and construction.

Two really excellent cabs and I get why folk are happy with either. It was great to be able spend the time having a careful listen to both (although I appreciate it’s not a comparison of the cabs in a live context nor done at loud volume) with a fellow BCer and combined with the positive feedback on this thread, I’ve finally (you’ll no doubt be pleased/ relieved to hear!) been able to come off the fence and decide on a cab which I hope will form a key part of my rig for several years to come. I have just confirmed to another BCer who had kindly put his VK cab on hold for me that I’ll be going ahead with the purchase.

Cheers everyone for your patience, honest feedback and insights – greatly appreciated. AK

Great review 👍 Edited March 24, 2021 by Dad3353

[CameronJ]

‘Twas a glorious afternoon tinkering with gear. Al and I spent a good while rattling walls today (Charlie @ The Gallery had the patience of a saint) and the result was that both of us came out a little more educated as far as the differences between these cabs. I initially said that putting the 1x12 BF against the 2x10 VK wasn’t really an apples to apples comparison, however Al then pointed out that based on price (which is often the deciding factor in any potential gear purchase) and on that basis they are, in fact, totally apples to apples.

Things to note:
- While we were in agreement that the VK 210 had the most pleasing sound at the same amp settings, it was slightly larger and heavier than the BB2 overall. Neither of us felt the difference in weight was nearly enough to overshadow the tonal difference though.

- The tonal difference wasn’t huge. It was simply a case of the VK having a seemingly more present midrange which we both felt made it feel clearer and more articulate. If I were forced to use one of these cabs with a totally flat amp in a band mix, I’d be reaching for the VK because of this slight added mid presence. I am, however, an advocate of twisting knobs (so to speak ) and don’t doubt that you could get either cab to sound roughly like the other with some tweaking of settings on the head.

- On the subject of amp heads, I wasn’t a particular fan of the head in the Markbass AC combo. That is all.

Edited November 2, 2017 by CameronJ

[Cuzzie]

Glad you guys had fun and time well spent to make your decision as well as make a new connection with each other.
7 pages of chat later i’m Sure you’ve come to the conclusion I told you you would Bas from the start!!!

Seriously though, thanks for both your work and everyone’s contributions, it’s informative reading.

Just goes to show it’s a photo finish against 2 quality manufacturers

[Osiris]

Great detailed review.

Did the gallery have a Barefaced Two 10 in stock? It'd be interesting to hear how that compared to the VK.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='Deedee' timestamp='1509662586' post='3400766']
Great review ��
[/quote]

[quote name='Cuzzie' timestamp='1509692864' post='3400852']
Seriously though, thanks for both your work and everyone's contributions, it's informative reading.
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Just goes to show it’s a photo finish against 2 quality manufacturers [/font][/color]
[/quote]

[quote name='Osiris' timestamp='1509694805' post='3400860']
Great detailed review. Did the gallery have a Barefaced Two 10 in stock? It'd be interesting to hear how that compared to the VK.
[/quote]

Cheers guys - a pleasure and least we could do given the contributions to 7 pages of discourse freely given by our fellow BCers!

@Cuzzie - in terms of photo finish, actually it really was! At the start of the A/B my very first reaction was that the BF was actually the better sounding (perhaps because we had mid boosted the amp a touch?). It was only after a further careful listen and setting the amp to a more neutral setting that the VK edged it (which was to Cameron's surprise as he hadn't been expecting that outcome, but kinda extra confirmation when you that happens and you find yourself changing your mind about something). His further point about being able to get to an EQ setting on your amp where either cab sounded great for someone's individual's sound is nicely put.

@Osiris - having got Charlie to rearrange the furniture to set things up with three cabs and one amp head and then leaving us be for two hours (and then not even letting us make a token contribution given that we were leaving without actually buying anything), I didn't really have the heart to ask to try out anything else yesterday! But if you fancy a trip down with your GM 800 head well I'm up for a rematch (although it won't be affecting my decision to get a VK 210 which I'm very happy is more than 'good enough' for me). He didn't have a BF ST in stock which would also have been good. I don't know if the BF 210 is anything like the BF one10 which I recently heard chez Grangur and which is a [i]really [/i]nice piece of kit (excellent articulation and portability) and for me would win a BF beauty parade hands down (with design / looks being one of those more 'superficial' factors that unfortunately is a bit of a stumbling block with some BF gear and finishes for some of us, as Wolverinebass mentioned earlier in the thread). So if you're thinking about a BF 210 and had budget I'd be tempted to say have a think about getting two BF one10s instead.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Al Krow

[alexclaber]

So did you borrow the Big Baby 2 demo cab to try it on some gigs?