The band that really should work....But

[shug]

[quote name='Oopsdabassist' timestamp='1499674454' post='3332808']
This, plus, all the celtic folk type music I see played in pubs is pretty improvised on the spot anyway.....which to me is much better than rigid 'doing it by the numbers'
[/quote]

Maybe it's a regional thing, and I'm not an expert in this genre, but my limited observations of the Irish/ Celtic thing make me think that, far from being improvised on the spot most of the pieces are learned by rote and then the agreed forms pretty much rigidly adhered to with little space for extemporising.

[lowdown]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1499766282' post='3333388']
I still print off a bit of manuscript and scribble down the dots because it helps (me)[b][i] to visualise it.[/i][/b]
[/quote]

Back in my teens, that's how I learned the circle of fifths. Of course, my ears eventually took over.
But visualising was a good way of learning for me (when away from an Instrument).

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Yank' timestamp='1499763452' post='3333363']
If you play an instrument, you're a musician. We all just play differently.
[/quote]
If you used to play an instrument and still have the instrument even though you don't play it, you're still a musician but you just aren't getting any better.

[Norris]

It's so long ago since I switcjed from playing classical music (trombone) to bass that it's not easy to remember the learning curve involved in throwing away the dots. It does take time, certainly to be able to improvise. It is possible - it just takes practice, the same as if a rock muso was trying to play classical.

I'd start off with a couple of songs and get your classical musicians to learn them off by heart. Then try repeating a verse or chorus to mix up the structure a little. Maybe try it in a different key. Just gradual changes to introduce a bit of flexibility

[jonsmith]

Years ago, a tribute band I was in was auditioning keyboard players. We tried many people, including a fantastic Hammond player who unfortunately learnt the chords for the piano parts, but not the correct voicing and phrasing of those chords. This made the songs sound completely wrong - but boy did the Hammond stuff sound good.

We also auditioned a classically trained keyboard player who had quite an impressive CV and had scored out all the keyboard parts. He got the job, because he was more or less ready to roll and we had a busy schedule coming up. Nevertheless, although his timing was correct in the strictest of terms, we initially had to work hard with him on 'feel' and he said he'd never had to concentrate so much on this aspect before and was surprised how important it was to the music we were playing. We also had some sections that were pretty fluid in terms of length and had to point out where those were and the fact that he could play around a bit within the basic chord structure, but once he knew that and had worked on the 'feel', he was extremely dependable - probably more so than the rest of us at times! We had a repertoire of about 3.5 hours worth of music and he was astounded that we played it all from memory. However he was out playing every night with many different acts playing a vast range of different styles of music, often sitting in with people for the first time and I suspect it would have been physically impossible for him to carry around all this stuff in his head. He could sit with the dots and get through it straight away though, albeit perhaps a little robotically at times.

I play with three bands, dep fairly regularly for another three and infrequently for some others too. Sometimes - perhaps due to age - I feel like I'm right at the limit of what I can realistically carry round in my head, especially as about 50% of what I do is original music that I'm not absorbing through other means (radio/TV/hours of listening to the songs at home etc.). If I was involved with the number and range of projects this keyboard player was, I think the dots (or at least some written pointers) would be a necessity.

It sounds like your dot players have their fingers in many pies, meaning it may be very difficult for them to move away from the dots for this single band. Is there no room for some compromise here? By which I mean that through discussion and the rehearsal process, the dot players learn what sections might be of a more flexible nature and are ready to accommodate them within a framework, while the singer learns that if she want to play with these particular musicians, there has to be some sort of basic form that they can refer to.

Is there a concern about certain players having the dots in front of them in a live situation and how that makes the band look? It certainly seems to have been an area of controversy on this forum before.

[Monkey Steve]

[quote name='KingPrawn' timestamp='1499642362' post='3332726']
That's what I thought. Aside from making the musical transition. There's a huge environmental change. We playing traditional Irish/ Celtic folk music, which is a passion we all share. I'm thinking it's such different worlds.
[/quote]

Is it actually the reading that's the problem, or the technique of the playing?

I don't have any direct experience of this, but was once in an originals thrash band with a classically trained rhythm guitarist, which by coincidence followed being in a covers band with a classically trained lead guitarist. The one in the covers band was one of the best guitarists I've ever played with, knew all the theory going but importantly knew when and how to apply it. the one in the thrash band was the opposite - whatever we played he applied his classical technique where it didn't belong and it sounded awful.

So I'm intrigued at whether it's being tied to the dots that's the problem - you want more groove/feel/whatever you want to call it coming out of the interaction between the instruments - or if it's that the dot-readers techniques aren't working for the music yet?

Whatever, I'm not sure there's much of a solution other than thrashing it out in the rehearsal room until it starts working better.

[cytania]

The fretboard is a thinkspace and as guitar players we visualise patterns and note relationships around it. The keyboard is also a thinkspace with the sharps/flats offset.

Wind players don't have this, the covered holes and valves are learnt patterns for each note. I can see why they need musical notation as they aren't looking down at any kind of thinkspace.

Will have more to report on dots and blown instruments in a month or so as I start depping with a Big Band soon. I may be the the one sweating over ' four lots of twelve bar then key change up 5' when everyone else is happily following dots 😀 I can read the dots but playing to them live? 😲

Edited July 12, 2017 by cytania

[KingPrawn]

[quote name='jonsmith' timestamp='1499851355' post='3334018']




Is there a concern about certain players having the dots in front of them in a live situation and how that makes the band look? It certainly seems to have been an area of controversy on this forum before.
[/quote]

There have been some really interesting responses. I hope the thread doesn't dip to the dots/ iPads etc on stage. That wasn't my intention. I think us muso's are far more critical of each other's than many we play for.

We're determined to give it time and help each other reach our goal. It's been really interesting. I've always put classically trained players on a really high pedasol, which they still deserve. It's just this situation has levelled us out as for friends playing together

[jonsmith]

[quote name='KingPrawn' timestamp='1499875544' post='3334258']
There have been some really interesting responses. I hope the thread doesn't dip to the dots/ iPads etc on stage. That wasn't my intention. I think us muso's are far more critical of each other's than many we play for.

[/quote]

I didn't think it was. It wasn't my intention to divert it down that road either - I have no axe to grind either way (which I hope is clear from the ramblings in the rest of my post). It was just a thought that popped into my head as I finished writing the rest of it.

[KingPrawn]

[quote name='jonsmith' timestamp='1499876497' post='3334270']


I didn't think it was. It wasn't my intention to divert it down that road either - I have no axe to grind either way (which I hope is clear from the ramblings in the rest of my post). It was just a thought that popped into my head as I finished writing the rest of it.
[/quote]
I agree completely. Thats why I quoted you. I'm with you 100%. I've really enjoyed the situation I'm in. That's why I posted the thread.

[Norris]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1499872746' post='3334230']
Wind players don't have this, the covered holes and valves are learnt patterns for each note. I can see why they need musical notation as they aren't looking down at any kind of thinkspace.
[/quote]

There are plenty of saxophonists and flutists that can be more free form and jam along to something. I think it's just what they are used to. Classical music is a different discipline and it takes some adjustment to make a move into either camp.

Good luck with the big band. I played my trombone in one for several years. It's great when it starts swinging. If you're playing bass you'll have a lot more freedom than the dots players - but then a knowledge of your scales and arpeggios will help with your walking bass lines, even if you're not reading rigid dots

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='Oopsdabassist' timestamp='1499674454' post='3332808']
This, plus, all the celtic folk type music I see played in pubs is pretty improvised on the spot anyway.....which to me is much better than rigid 'doing it by the numbers'
[/quote]

This is so far from the truth as to be almost unreal. Yes some of the song backings may seem like that but the rality is that we know the songs, the form and what works. We are also very aware of the instruments that are playing. As far as tunes are concerned than we know these tunes, if we don't we back out until we have a fix on them. A session may look very haphazard and improvised but actually each tune and tune set has its own structure that the players know.

What becomes interesting is that tunes and sets are fairly regional (even in England, more so in the Celtic nations) so tunes that are common in sessions in one area may be almost unknown somewhere else.

[oggiesnr]

An everyday orchestral player is expected to be able to play 100's of hours of different music accurately each year. They don't have the luxury of learning by heart and they also don't have the luxury of a "wrong" note. Learning by rote is a skill they have no need for and don't develop.

The soloist is slightly different. They have a more limited repertoire at any one time and as theirs is the only only instrument to be playing a line they have a little more leeway in the accuracy department (note I said "little"). Also part of what makes them a soloist is that slightly different skill set.

I have heard accusations that players who need the dots are using them as a crutch, they're not, they're using them the way they have spent thousands of hours learning to do. Getting round that is a slow process. Maybe you could look at how you have arranged the music and see if a more organic approach is possible.

[ambient]

[quote name='LITTLEWING' timestamp='1499711394' post='3333091']
I've always said that people who have to read music to play have no musical soul. A bass guy, keyboard or guitard who've learnt 300 or more toons in their lifetime and can rattle them off with the odd little inaudible mistake, then play an improv solo from somewhere inside their heart - THAT'S a musician.
I've seen guys on cruise ships backing mini stars that have to read to play and actually sound great and spot on, but I often wonder if they could really hold their own in a jam situation.
[/quote]

There's absolutely no reason why someone who's classically trained can't improvise. They are two different skills, admittedly, but they can both be learned.

[ambient]

Can they not just write out parts for the songs?

Maybe just go through each song a part at a time, so verse then chorus etc, and have them write (notation) or just sketch out what they're doing, or what they're basing what they're playing on.

That's what I do with my ambient stuff. I had to actually score out six or seven pieces for my BMus, which was an absolute nightmare, each was about 20 or 30 pages long, with lots of improvisation. For my own use though, I use a mix of standard notation, if there's a particular figure I'll use notation, and written direction and some graphic stuff to give a direction of where I want the piece to go.

Just something for them to look at.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='KingPrawn' timestamp='1499633862' post='3332669']
I have found myself in a really odd situation. I'm involved with a band that has 3 other incredible players, two are classically trained and play day in day out orchestras etc. The lead singer is fab and decent guitarist.

But....

There is a barrier in that the two highly trained players have to have the dots in front of them. They are really struggling to make the transition to learning a song without the dots. Equally the lead singer is struggling to get to grips with being handed lead sheets, as she is really an intuitive player. I find myself as piggy in the middle. I can just about hold my own with work between rehearsals. I really want it to work as when it gels it sounds great.

Just wondering if any of you BCers have any tips to make this work? wheres the middle ground?
[/quote]
Is there actually a problem here that won't be solved by just spending a little time working together? If they are going to read the dots it's probably going to be completely correct, a bit like playing with a click track for you as a bassist. You are probably going to have to observe note lengths and pauses more accurately to tie in with them, what a great opportunity to work on your playing.

If they want the dots they are going to have to write them themselves. For them that is the effort/cost involved in learning the song, just like the effort you put in learning it your way.

Do they want to change, or see it as a problem? If not you probably aren't going to have a lot of luck pressurising them and why should they if they can play the songs beginning to end perfectly well.

I'd imagine they've all done some training as accompanists so with the notes in front of them they'll still be able to follow a looser approach to timing/phrasing. I've seen the whole London Symphony Orchestra rise up as to a man and woman to support a struggling soloist.

Most importantly I think a lot of really good music comes out of mixing in different skills, even playing Mustang Sally in a covers band demands little adaptations to the rest of the musicians. You are going to end up playing differently from other bands, it may take a while to adapt to each other but if you listen to each others ideas and playing it'll happen.