Punters Don't Know The Difference

[ahpook]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1499988802' post='3335044'] I'm sitting here looking at my gig schedule and I'm figuring out which bills will be paid and when. Seriously, am I the only bass chatter that us in this for the money. And why does it seem like not being in it for the money is some sort of badge of honor? Blue [/quote]


I'd watch all this inventing people: 'musicians who don't care if they make mistakes' and 'bassists who think not being paid is a badge of honour'...there's no 6 foot rabbits attending your gigs are there ?

Edited July 14, 2017 by ahpook

[peteb]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1499988802' post='3335044']


I'm sitting here looking at my gig schedule and I'm figuring out which bills will be paid and when.

Seriously, am I the only bass chatter that us in this for the money. And why does it seem like not being in it for the money is some sort of badge of honor?

Blue
[/quote]
I think that some see playing for good money as a badge of honour, just as others pride themselves on being in it for artistic motives without being tainted by filthy lucre.

Personally, money isn't the primary motive but I will as a matter of pride insist on being paid the going rate when playing gigs where others are making money. Of course, what actually is the going rate is another topic!

Edited July 14, 2017 by peteb

[blue]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1499989334' post='3335045']


That's [i]your [/i]perception, not ours, so ask the question of [i]yourself[/i], not us.
[/quote]

Your right, it's just my perception. Where it comes from, who knows?

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1499990368' post='3335051']


I very much doubt it. You're coming across like you only do it for the money and you've contradicted that notion more than once in other threads.

I don't wear the fact that I don't play primarily for the money as a badge of honour. It was merely a response to Big Red's comments.
[/quote]

I made a choice and I now have to live with it, dependent on the money. But it's still a lot of fun.

So why do I feel like the "bad guy".

Blue

[blue]

By the way guys, I'm no great bass player. Marginal at best.I"ve been playing forever, but there are probably people with no more than 2 years under their belt that are a head of me.

It's always been a struggle for me. Something I'm constantly working at.

I make my share of mistakes, I don't like it, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over them.

Nothing comes easy to me.

Blue

Edited July 14, 2017 by blue

[T-Bay]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1499997194' post='3335063']


I made a choice and I now have to live with it, dependent on the money. But it's still a lot of fun.

So why do I feel like the "bad guy".

Blue
[/quote]
Some of your posts do come across as suggesting that 'mere amateurs could never match the brilliance of us hardworking pros'. I doubt that is how you mean it but it does sound that way sometimes and perhaps that it why you get some of the replies to your threads that you do. Could be a language thing I maybe.

[T-Bay]

I should add that I don't read it that way, I like your threads Blue, they always start interesting conversation at the least.

[grumpyguts]

From players who tour with big name bands to people like me that get a relatively small number of gigs per year - it's a big range. You would expect a player on tour doing the same set every couple of days would be pretty solid.

I try my best and am generally never happy. The fact that most people don't notice errors doesn't stop me aiming higher and working at improving my ability. Being well practiced should allow me to enjoy the gig and not worry about errors, this is a good thing.

Blue makes his living playing bar gigs and not working in an office, warehouse etc. Sounds great but is no doubt a lot of hard work - so it's a serious business. Is there enough money playing pub gigs over here to make a living?

[dmccombe7]

Don't really see it as a badge of honour. I've always had a well paid job and never really needed the money from gigging. For me i just enjoyed playing. If the gigs were well paid i really appreciated the extra cash but if not it didn't really bother me as long as i was enjoying it and the audience were having a good time.

The big difference Blue is that you made a decision to make a living from playing and that's admirable but as you say doesn't make you a better player just more dedicated to earning than myself.

I have found thru friends that make a living from it that they do put in a bit more effort into their performance and their overall band package. That comes across in both their ability as musicians and the overall presentation of the band. That's just a personal observation of people and bands i know.

If you ask yourself "is money the driving force behind you playing" i would say No whereas some would have to say yes because it pays the bills at the end of the day. That's maybe a bit crude and simplistic view of it but it does highlight one of the differences between why we are all playing.

Blue - i def don't see you as the bad guy either. I do see you as someone who has good strong opinions on the subject and posts that i thoroughly enjoy. If we were all the same it would be a boring world i reckon.

Think there are many reasons for why we all play. No Good or Bad ones. Just different.

Dave

Edited July 14, 2017 by dmccombe7

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1499988529' post='3335043']
How do they get to that level? Attitude, hard work,conviction, disipline, gifted, and smarts are probably all a part of it.

I also think playing with like minded people and playing with musicians that challenge you helps.

It will be tough for young guys in bands with guys that have the ability but are just plain lazy. I'm sure a few of you have been through that. Very frustrating.

Blue
[/quote]

Agree with you on reasons Blue. I do regard you as a Professional musician tho as you earn a living from playing.

Not sure whether TimR is also a full time musician or is it a hobby. My question was for TimR on how he managed to get to that level himself.
If he's a full time musician then i would expect that kind of level. If its a part time job then i'm curious as to how he reached that level.

Its not a sarcastic reply to TimR and not having a dig at anyone here. I am curious to know how a part time bassist achieves that higher level. Some guys are just sh*t hot at playing and have a natural ability and that would be the answer to my question. If it's solely down to putting in the additional effort and hard work then that kind of explains why some people are just better at it than others and partially answers Blue's original query on this thread.

Dave

[TimR]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1500023953' post='3335163']


Agree with you on reasons Blue. I do regard you as a Professional musician tho as you earn a living from playing.

Not sure whether TimR is also a full time musician or is it a hobby. My question was for TimR on how he managed to get to that level himself.
If he's a full time musician then i would expect that kind of level. If its a part time job then i'm curious as to how he reached that level.

Its not a sarcastic reply to TimR and not having a dig at anyone here. I am curious to know how a part time bassist achieves that higher level. Some guys are just sh*t hot at playing and have a natural ability and that would be the answer to my question. If it's solely down to putting in the additional effort and hard work then that kind of explains why some people are just better at it than others and partially answers Blue's original query on this thread.

Dave
[/quote]

It's just down to making yourself available to play in many different situations with as many different people as possible. Go to Jam sessions, move bands when you think you're not getting gigs or making progress musically, let people know you're available to dep.

A lot of people claim they don't have a lot of time to do things but I'm a great believer that if you want to do something you'll find the time.

My other hobby is running. It takes up about 7-8 hours a week. But that's only an hour every other day and 3 hours on a Sunday. People say they'd love to do that but don't have the time. Then in the next breath ask if I watched X on TV last night? No, instead of spending that hour watching X I went out and ran.

Yes, there are people who work very long hours and have big commitments, those people will be good at work and their other commitments. As you say somewhere along the line you have to draw the line about how much time you can reasonably spend on your 'hobby' without impacting on other things.

I've been playing for 35 years as a semi-pro, theatre pits, jazz trios, function bands, thrash metal bands, rock bands, pub and club bands.

You just get a feel for how a gig will go and sometimes it's not worth putting in another 10% of effort to improve something by 1%. When the punters won't notice the difference.

A three minute pop song shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes for a band up have gig ready. Some should be gig ready on first or second play through, or even just play at the gig. There's a limited number of songs (standards) that do the rounds and everyone owes it to themselves to just learn them.

[Panamonte]

Hey, even Tony Levin makes mistakes. Here's a recent blog entry to prove it. It refers to a King Crimson gig earlier this week. Apparently the punters didn't notice


[color=#1D2129][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"Some of my friends in the audience thought tonight’s show was even better than last nights, and maybe it was.[/font][/color]
[color=#1D2129][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]But there was one train wreck. And a Crimson train wreck is, well, not like other bands… a King C[/font][/color][color=#1D2129][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]rimson train wreck takes out the whole train station. And maybe the town it’s in!
Allow me to explain.
It happened during “The ConstruKction of Light”, a particularly complex piece. I’ve mentioned in a few interviews that to me, Trey Gunn’s touch guitar part on that piece is the best I know of, for utilizing what the instrument can do, and complementing the music in a unique way.
But it’s really tricky… took me ages to learn, and even now that I’ve got it down, things can go wrong at any point.
And tonight, things indeed went wrong. It’s hard to say where it began… hard, not because I don’t know, but because I know it was because of me!
Only a little error… pausing four beats instead of six. (there are various pauses of both lengths in the piece.) But in this piece, we’re not all playing in the same time signature, so the two guitarists, hearing me enter early, didn’t know when to enter with their parts… opted instead to let me keep going on my own.
And I did keep going. The drums are out in that section, so it was just me, playing on and on in a complex eighth note pattern, hoping someone would come in. That lasted for ages (to me) and finally the drummers and I came together with the 15/8 figure that signals the end of what could be called the verse.
But then, a new issue.. would the guitars enter with verse two, or, not having played anything yet, start in on verse one. Alas, they didn’t agree on that. They came in with both, hence in different keys! The ensuing harmonic mess left them no choice but to stop again, leaving… you guessed it, just me playing alone again.
By now, we certainly knew we had a problem about how to bring this piece together. There’s no just counting ‘one two three four’ when one player’s in 28/8 and others in 7/4 offset a quarter note from each other, and the drummers waiting to join in in 15/8 to signal finally getting beyond the verses!
I could have just stopped and admitted defeat (maybe thrown up my hands and shouted “Thank You” in a Spinal Tap maneuver.) But, right or wrong, (well, wrong or wrong) I persisted.[/font][/color]

Edited July 14, 2017 by Panamonte

[RockfordStone]

in my bands, i have always wanted my guys to act like they are playing to a crowd at wembley, even if it is to one man and his dog at a dusty pub.

i always want to ensure everyone knows all their parts and can play them perfectly even without other members, having set tempos and in some cases a choreographed live show.

that said, we've made howling mistakes on stage, but because we have worked on our songs and set, we can cover the mistakes. The crowd may notice the mistakes, but my job is to entertain them, not give them a note for note perfect copy of our cd. generally, if you are a tidy band, a well handled mistake will endear you to the crowd rather than turn them away.

i don't think any band goes out to play with the ethos "its ok cos the crowd wont notice"... the crowd do notice, they will notice a good band who has made a mistake and ignore it, but any band that assumes the crowd don't notice their incompetence won't get gigs

[TimR]

[quote name='Panamonte' timestamp='1500026734' post='3335187']
...
[/quote]

That's a great story and something that's probably happened to all of us in some form or another.

That's the skill of being a good musician though. Someone who just learns the tune parrot fashion and can't adapt when things don't go to plan would be stuck and freeze.

Keep smiling and wait for a queue or a nod. Communication, communication, communication.

[dmccombe7]

TimR - sounds like you've reached that peak because you have put in the additional effort. Looking at your background in playing and how you describe it you have obviously gained a vast amount of experience over the years.

So i guess that answers the OP question in a way.
To get a flawless or a good performance requires a lot of dedicated hard work and a drive to put that job in front of other things in life.
I guess that's why professional musicians are where they are too.

It has to be a balance of what you feel is important to you.

Dave

[Les]

Not sure the odd fluff really matters as long as it's glossed over. It happens, see Levins tale above.

It's about attitude and confidence, I'd rather see a band jumping about or playing standing on the tables and generally interacting with the crowd than watch a static neck gazer who doesn't look up but doesn't make a mistake.

It's a live show, it may be more important to do the back flip rather than hit the right note.

Les

[Monkey Steve]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1500039456' post='3335297']
Not sure the odd fluff really matters as long as it's glossed over. It happens, see Levins tale above.

It's about attitude and confidence, I'd rather see a band jumping about or playing standing on the tables and generally interacting with the crowd than watch a static neck gazer who doesn't look up but doesn't make a mistake.

It's a live show, it may be more important to do the back flip rather than hit the right note.

Les
[/quote]

why is it always one or the other - why not do the back flips and hit the correct notes?

[bubinga5]

Most are talking about the audience, not noticing the difference in bass tone. Nothing to do with music difference

[Les]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1500039644' post='3335299']
why is it always one or the other - why not do the back flips and hit the correct notes?
[/quote]

That would be marvelous.

[TimR]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1500038446' post='3335289']
TimR - sounds like you've reached that peak because you have put in the additional effort. Looking at your background in playing and how you describe it you have obviously gained a vast amount of experience over the years.

So i guess that answers the OP question in a way.
To get a flawless or a good performance requires a lot of dedicated hard work and a drive to put that job in front of other things in life.
I guess that's why professional musicians are where they are too.

It has to be a balance of what you feel is important to you.

Dave
[/quote]

Yes. But the experience is cumulated. In my case it's sporadic but over several years. For a pro I would expect that experience to be gained quickly in a few years.

I think it's more about how you approach your playing.

If you join a covers band and stay in that band for years playing with the same musicians concentrating on exact facsimiles of tunes, never having a lesson, you're not going to develop much.

Go to college for 3 years and you'd come out with far more experience and knowledge than I have.

We also talk about developing big ears.

That's listening to lots of different types of music and being able to hear where tunes are going. I.e. Knowing what and where the chord changes are going to be.

There are people who are open to music and new ideas and there are people who have very closed minds.

Really what I'm saying is that Pro's and more experienced musicians have a massive tool kit and make it look easy, and to some extent it does become extremely easy. There is still the occasional tune that requires a lot of work.

Hit me with your Rhythm stick is a tune I have to learn. I've always shied away from learning it. I'm expecting it to take a while (maybe an hour or two?) to transpose and get the right feel. But now I have reason and an excuse to learn it. That's one reason why changing bands often is quite an important driver for me.

[TimR]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1500040428' post='3335304']
Most are talking about the audience, not noticing the difference in bass tone. Nothing to do with music difference
[/quote]

In some cases yes. But I think Blue is talking about attention to detail in music.

[blue]

[quote name='grumpyguts' timestamp='1500017343' post='3335098']
From players who tour with big name bands to people like me that get a relatively small number of gigs per year - it's a big range. You would expect a player on tour doing the same set every couple of days would be pretty solid.

I try my best and am generally never happy. The fact that most people don't notice errors doesn't stop me aiming higher and working at improving my ability. Being well practiced should allow me to enjoy the gig and not worry about errors, this is a good thing.

Blue makes his living playing bar gigs and not working in an office, warehouse etc. Sounds great but is no doubt a lot of hard work - so it's a serious business. Is there enough money playing pub gigs over here to make a living?
[/quote]

You know for me it's a little different than most. I'm 64, single (divorced) family raised and gone and very low living expenses.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1500041902' post='3335320']


In some cases yes. But I think Blue is talking about attention to detail in music.
[/quote]

I've been talking about attitude.

Blue

[TimR]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1500046696' post='3335365']


I've been talking about attitude.

Blue
[/quote]

Well, I got myself involved in a band. Older guys, practiced hard and sounded great in rehearsal, pro gear, pro attitude to getting and pricing gigs, looked smart, great setlist, on paper it was a licence to make money.

Unfortunately as soon as they stepped on stage they all fell apart musically. I think I did 4 gigs before walking away. Shame because the drummer was excellent, but you can't play a gig with just drums and bass while everyone else is making mistakes and forgetting whole sections.

Sometimes attitude and application just isn't enough.

Edited July 14, 2017 by TimR

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1500047306' post='3335372']


Well, I got myself involved in a band. Older guys, practiced hard and sounded great in rehearsal, pro gear, pro attitude to getting and pricing gigs, looked smart, great setlist, on paper it was a licence to make money.

Unfortunately as soon as they stepped on stage they all fell apart musically. I think I did 4 gigs before walking away. Shame because the drummer was excellent, but you can't play a gig with just drums and bass while everyone else is making mistakes and forgetting whole sections.

Sometimes attitude and application just isn't enough.
[/quote]

This happens more than most will admit.

An unfortunate experience, don't let this experience turn you off and away from bands.

Question, did the band have a "star" meaning an very good front person?

Blue