Punters Don't Know The Difference

[mikel]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1500147574' post='3335952']
Tipping, yeah it's really accepted in the States. I found out from a friend that use to cut hair where I get my hair cut, they get pissed if you don't tip at least $5.00 for a $15.00 haircut.

Igrtit and I'm cool with it, I know the corporate hourly wage there is a joke.

Blue
[/quote]

Tipping? Its a cultural thing I suppose. In Britain, and I am talking about myself here, people are paid to do a job, end of. If its in the service sector like restaurants etc, and they do a great job and go beyond what is expected then I will tip. I see it as a bonus for being exceptional, but I wont tip someone for simply doing the job. They get paid for that, as do I. Why not simply charge $20 for the haircut and pay the guy a decent wage? Its a con really.

Edited July 23, 2017 by mikel

[mikel]

[quote name='subaudio' timestamp='1500821549' post='3340371']
My take on punters not noticing is that you can use that phrase to stop self torture over an honest mistake.

Mistakes happen, we are human, although as a perfectionist that lesson is hard for me to learn, but life is better for it.

What "the punters don't notice" isn't, is an excuse for not playing and preparing as best as you possibly can.

A "dishonest" mistake would be not preparing properly and sounding sloppy, punters might not notice that if your lucky but your peers will and might not hire you for better gigs etc. and, you wont be developing as a musician in the way you should.
[/quote]

I never beat myself up over a mistake. I would beat myself up, big time, for playing poorly due to lack of preparation because I do have control over that. Control the controllable, the rest you cant influence.

[PaulWarning]

I don't tip very often, if I'm in a full waiter/waitress service restaurant ( not very often I usually go to pay when you order at the bar type of places) I leave a tip if I've enjoyed the meal, but that's the only time, But I know it's a different culture in the states, apparently in some places the waiting staff get paid nothing if it's a busy restaurant, I suppose if the food prices reflect that and everyone is aware of that it's ok

Edited July 23, 2017 by PaulWarning

[Guest subaudio]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1500826261' post='3340411']


I never beat myself up over a mistake. I would beat myself up, big time, for playing poorly due to lack of preparation because I do have control over that. Control the controllable, the rest you cant influence.
[/quote]
Wise words, hard to learn, easy to forget

[neilp]

[quote name='T-Bay' timestamp='1499886984' post='3334362']
Hmmm, did theyngetbthere by worrying about every single tiny mistake and perfecting it, or did they get there by having a passion for what they did and living the moment flat out and loving it which came across to the audience who were more interested in the eneergy than a perfect display of musicianship.

If I want perfect music I will watch an orchestra, I want a gig to be full of energy and hit me hard, if that means they make a mistake or two who cares? I won't notice as I am enjoying myself too much.
[/quote]
Why does everyone thing there's this divide in energy, spark, spotaneity between a "gig" and an orchestral performance? If you want to be "hit hard" try the Berlin Phil playing Prokofiev or Mahler. Great musicians put their heart and soul in, regardless whether they are sitting down reading the notes or giving it large with their foot on the wedge.

Blue is right. We should strive to be note-perfect AND passionate. It can be done, it is done day in, day out all over the world. Don't settle for less.

[T-Bay]

[quote name='neilp' timestamp='1500842730' post='3340583']

Why does everyone thing there's this divide in energy, spark, spotaneity between a "gig" and an orchestral performance? If you want to be "hit hard" try the Berlin Phil playing Prokofiev or Mahler. Great musicians put their heart and soul in, regardless whether they are sitting down reading the notes or giving it large with their foot on the wedge.

Blue is right. We should strive to be note-perfect AND passionate. It can be done, it is done day in, day out all over the world. Don't settle for less.
[/quote]
Personal taste, it may do it for you but doesn't for everyone and certainly not for me. It's my opinion (and just my opinion, others with disagree I am sure) but I have never seen ANYTHING rival punk for pure energy and excitement, and I have never seen any punk performance close to this mystical perfection. We should all strive for perfection, but getting hung up on the odd tiny mistake can make a performance worse not better in my experience.

[gjones]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1500107855' post='3335634']
No more than others bring up they're not in it for the money.

Blue
[/quote]


I'm with Blue on the money front. If your band is any good, you will be in demand. It's irrelevant whether you need or want the money, if people value your music, they will pay for it.


My opinion is that, if you have an amateur attitude to whether or not you get paid for your music, you'll also have an amateur attitude to the music.

Edited July 24, 2017 by gjones

[Dad3353]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1500847037' post='3340634']...
My opinion is, that if you have an amateur attitude to whether or not you get paid for your music, you'll also have an amateur attitude to the music.
[/quote]

... and my opinion is that there is no correlation; one's attitude to music has nothing to do with being paid, for very many folks, including very many fine musicians. I'd cite, as only one of many examples, the excellent amateur orchestras that thrive all around the planet, including the UK. There are others (folk bands, Morris men, ethnic groups everywhere; even many rock groups...)...

Edited July 23, 2017 by Dad3353

[blue]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1500847037' post='3340634']



I'm with Blue on the money front. If your band is any good, you will be in demand. It's irrelevant whether you need or want the money, if people value your music, they will pay for it.


My opinion is, that if you have an amateur attitude to whether or not you get paid for your music, you'll also have an amateur attitude to the music.
[/quote]

Thank you Gjones,

Good way of putting it, I wish I had your word-smithing and messeging ability.


And some of this " we're not in it for the money" is actually, "we can't seem to get any money"


Unless your a high school band, meaning your band members are still in school and the age range is 14-17 years old, I hope your not running around begging people to let your band play for free or paying to play. Nothing wrong with that, I just hope your not doing it.

But the big take away here is it's not about whether you need or want the money or not.

How many times have we heard;

"I have a job, so I'm not in it for the money"

Blue

Edited July 24, 2017 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='neilp' timestamp='1500842730' post='3340583']

Blue is right. We should strive to be note-perfect AND passionate. It can be done, it is done day in, day out all over the world. Don't settle for less.
[/quote]

It's all about attitude. I bring it to every gig.

But understand, I never have even close to a flawless performance.

Blue

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1500827731' post='3340424']
I don't tip very often, if I'm in a full waiter/waitress service restaurant ( not very often I usually go to pay when you order at the bar type of places) I leave a tip if I've enjoyed the meal, but that's the only time, But I know it's a different culture in the states, apparently in some places the waiting staff get paid nothing if it's a busy restaurant, I suppose if the food prices reflect that and everyone is aware of that it's ok
[/quote]

We also tip our take away delivery drivers. We discovered it is worth it too.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1500900761' post='3340922']...take away delivery drivers...
[/quote]

Isn't there a contradiction here, somewhere..?

...

Edited July 24, 2017 by Dad3353

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1500900845' post='3340925']
Isn't there a contradiction here, somewhere..?

...


[/quote]

I know but the delivery drivers don't know the difference.

[stingrayPete1977]

I normally spend a couple of hours learning the more difficult songs for a gig if I'm a bit rusty then screw up the dead easy ones on the night, probably just as any fellow bass players walk in and right back out again! lol

[dmccombe7]

Sorry to disagree with people but i don't undertstand why some musicians cant accept that some of us don't need the money and whether i get paid or not doesn't matter to me at all.
I have played gigs for free,or very little and i've also played gigs with good money. I've even played good paying gigs and told the other band members to just split the money between them. I didn't need it and they didn't have great paying full time jobs. I've also played charity gigs where all moeney at the door went to a childrens hospital. Does that make me have an amatuer attitude. No it doesn't. Everyone gave their best and none f the 7 bands got paid that day.

I put 100% into whatever i do whether its playing bass or when i had my full time job. Its an attitude to give it all i can no matter what i'm doing.
I don't go into a gig with an attitude of "they pay sh*t so i'll just give it 60% tonight"
I've never let money dictate my life in any way.

With regards the point made that if people value your music they will pay for it. Yes that's true if you want to charge them for it. People can still value your music even if you are an amatuer and not paying for it.
I don't see the link between ability or attitude and money.
I class an amatuer bassist as someone who does it part time or as a hobby. A professional is someone who's sole income is from playing bass.
I regard myself as an amatuer bassist but i know people value my playing whether that's an audience or other musicians. I don't recall ever having a "bad gig" where people didn't like the band.

If i was asked to play a gig that i thought would be enjoyable to play i would without giving it a 2nd thought money or not. And that would mean i was losing money thru travel costs. Yes i've done those gigs too mainly because i knew i would enjoy them and i did.

People need to realise that some people need to make money at playing. That's fine but why criticise those that don't need to make money.
I also don't rate musicians as better or worse depending on whether they are professional or amatuer. If they are good that's it for me.

Dave

Edited July 24, 2017 by dmccombe7

[blue]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1500925377' post='3341145']
Sorry to disagree with people but i don't undertstand why some musicians cant accept that some of us don't need the money and whether i get paid or not doesn't matter to me at all.
I have played gigs for free,or very little and i've also played gigs with good money. I've even played good paying gigs and told the other band members to just split the money between them. I didn't need it and they didn't have great paying full time jobs. I've also played charity gigs where all moeney at the door went to a childrens hospital. Does that make me have an amatuer attitude. No it doesn't. Everyone gave their best and none f the 7 bands got paid that day.

I put 100% into whatever i do whether its playing bass or when i had my full time job. Its an attitude to give it all i can no matter what i'm doing.
I don't go into a gig with an attitude of "they pay sh*t so i'll just give it 60% tonight"
I've never let money dictate my life in any way.

With regards the point made that if people value your music they will pay for it. Yes that's true if you want to charge them for it. People can still value your music even if you are an amatuer and not paying for it.
I don't see the link between ability or attitude and money.
I class an amatuer bassist as someone who does it part time or as a hobby. A professional is someone who's sole income is from playing bass.
I regard myself as an amatuer bassist but i know people value my playing whether that's an audience or other musicians. I don't recall ever having a "bad gig" where people didn't like the band.

If i was asked to play a gig that i thought would be enjoyable to play i would without giving it a 2nd thought money or not. And that would mean i was losing money thru travel costs. Yes i've done those gigs too mainly because i knew i would enjoy them and i did.

People need to realise that some people need to make money at playing. That's fine but why criticise those that don't need to make money.
I also don't rate musicians as better or worse depending on whether they are professional or amatuer. If they are good that's it for me.

Dave
[/quote]

Sorry Dave,

I agree with you on some topics, but not this issue.

It's not about whether a musician wants or needs the money. Even people like me that work for ,want and need the money. I say bands like you seem to be describing are far and few in between.

The members of my band outside of ne all have full time jobs, however they don't share your "don't need , don't want" position.

I can't accept the notion that those that make it a point to play for free approach band management or performance the same way those of us do that are trying to scratch out a living.

However, for those who don't need or want the money, I say, proceed. Nobody is stopping you.

With all respect

Blue

Edited July 25, 2017 by blue

[mikel]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1500926747' post='3341157']
Sorry Dave,

I agree with you on some topics, but not this issue.

It's not about whether a musician wants or needs the money. Even people like me that work for ,want and need the money. I say bands like you seem to be describing are far and few in between.

The members of my band outside of ne all have full time jobs, however they don't share your "don't need , don't want" position.

[b]I can't accept the notion that those that make it a point to play for free approach the band management or performance the same way those of us do that are trying to scratch out a living.[/b]

However, for those who don't need or want the money, I say, proceed. Nobody is stopping you.

With all respect

Blue
[/quote]

Accept it or not, Its a fact. I have never made a living from playing and now dont need to. I give 100% to my practice, rehearsals and gigs, always have and always will. Music means more to me than making money, while I was working I was always thinking about playing, writing, recording. If I could have made a living from music I would have, but It was not to be. I remain a very committed, passionate and well prepared semi pro, with the emphasis on pro.

Dont assume that because someone is not being paid they are not taking it seriously, or not giving it 100%. I have seen many top pro bands going through the motions, and young pub bands nailing it.

Edited July 24, 2017 by mikel

[Dad3353]

+1 ^^

[TimR]

Certainly I don't know many bands that are playing 3 or 4 gigs a weekend for free.

[blue]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1500927761' post='3341167']


Accept it or not, Its a fact. I have never made a living from playing and now dont need to. I give 100% to my practice, rehearsals and gigs, always have and always will. Music means more to me than making money, while I was working I was always thinking about playing, writing, recording. If I could have made a living from music I would have, but It was not to be. I remain a very committed, passionate and well prepared semi pro, with the emphasis on pro.

Dont assume that because someone is not being paid they are not taking it seriously, or not giving it 100%. I have seen many top pro bands going through the motions, and young pub bands nailing it.
[/quote]

Then you are a part of the far and few in between.

And nothing is fact merely because I say something or you say something.

I get the sense that some think because they play for free they're slightly better than those of us that play for and depend on the money.


Blue

Edited July 24, 2017 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1500935201' post='3341238']
Certainly I don't know many bands that are playing 3 or 4 gigs a weekend for free.
[/quote]

Good point Tim. I think most that are playing for free are playing maybe once a month or so.

Age is also a factor that can make it go both ways.

Guys like me, older and breaking our butts doing multiple 4 hour bar gigs along with festival and fair gigs. We're certainly not playing for free.

And then I can certainly understand guys my age that have done the gigging for money thing over the past 40, 50 years and now want cut back or restrict gigging ,relax and play only a few choice gigs for free.

And understand my perspective is based in 4 hour US bar gigs.

Blue

Edited July 25, 2017 by blue

[Les]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1500927761' post='3341167']
Accept it or not, Its a fact. I have never made a living from playing and now dont need to.
[/quote]

Not sure you have to be making a living at it to want to be paid.

I don't make a living at it by any stretch of the imagination but I want paying. I'd walk in to some of the gigs we do, take a look at the postage sized area behind a pillar that we're expected to play in, look at the half cut coked up dicks who've been there since early afternoon and say "nah, not doing this" and go home if I wasn't being paid.

Les

[blue]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1500945903' post='3341258']


Not sure you have to be making a living at it to want to be paid.

I don't make a living at it by any stretch of the imagination but I want paying. I'd walk in to some of the gigs we do, take a look at the postage sized area behind a pillar that we're expected to play in, look at the half cut coked up dicks who've been there since early afternoon and say "nah, not doing this" and go home if I wasn't being paid.

Les
[/quote]

Good point Les.

I need to be paid just for being in the part of town our gig was in last Friday night.

Blue

Edited July 25, 2017 by blue

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1500937982' post='3341249']


I get the sense that some think because they play for free they're slightly better than those of us that play for and depend on the money.


Blue
[/quote]

I would have thought that the top pros are leading the way in bass style and expanding its boundaries and are all paid and i tend to rate them as the leaders in bass. Of course there are great pro bassists who are not technically fast or show-offs but can produce a great bass run even tho its simple. It just fits the song.
Again i don't like to rate people on whether they are paid or not. Some un-paid bassists i know are just incredibly talented but they have other commitments nowadays and don't play in bands as such.

Dave

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1500938486' post='3341250']
Good point Tim. I think most that are playing for free are playing maybe once a month or so.


Blue
[/quote]

Agreed that i don't want to be playing as aoften as you Blue and once a month maybe even less kinda suits my lifestyle.
The age thing i would also agree with but in the other way. I've worked hard at my full time job until retiring last year at 55 and now i'm chilling mainly because i can and want to do other things.

One thing i would say tho is that i was as committed to my full time job as you are to yours and maybe that's the big difference between us. Our main jobs are / were different. For you its a career and for me its a hobby that i enjoy on occasion.
I used to think that if i did it full time i might even get to a point where i wasn't enjoying it as much and who knows maybe sub-consciously that's why i've been limiting the number of gigs.

I honestly don't think we will ever all agree on this topic 100% but we should agree that we have different views on it.

I have a lot of respect for guys that do it professionally like you. In my opinion i feel you have to be more committed to playing, not better at playing but you need to put more into the full package to get the gigs.
Personally i don't need to put that much effort in but i can still enjoy the odd gig when i get asked to play them by friends etc
That might all change soon as i've been asked to join a function band and they are all in it for the money.

Dave

Edited July 25, 2017 by dmccombe7