What's so good about old bass guitars?

[Peter Train]

Ok folks,

I'm new to playing the bass and so I’ve read all the articles and adverts about bass guitars and I want to know what is so good about old basses?

I've seen loads of adds for very expensive 59, 59 fenders and I can't figure out what is so good about them When manufacturers change designs it's usually done to improve the quality of the product. I can't believe that new basses made now aren't made to the same or higher standard that those made over 30 years ago. Also, I can't believe that the pick ups and electrics on new basses (and I mean the high end expensive ones not cheap imitations) are not better that those made in the 50's and 60's.

Is it simply the case that they are vintage basses like antiques?

This is a serious question, as I don't understand why older basses are so valued and played.

Pete

[waynepunkdude]

I know what you mean, I think some people prefer the 'classic' tone and some people like the idea of owning a piece of history.

Personally I like new and shiny

[sgt-pluck]

Some of it is about 'antiqueness'. Fenders in particular are so iconic that they command huge prices just as vintage cars, motorcycles etc etc do.

Some of it is about 'mojo'. Real or imagined, playing an old bass that has been around the block a bit appeals to some ( me included ). And usually a good instrument is only still around because it is a good instrument, otherwise it would have ended up on tip years ago.

You could also argue that much of the modern technology hasn't necessarily moved things forward all that much. It's interesting that despite all the advances in electrickery and manufacturing complexity, the humble p-bass whether bought new or second-hand is still a much-loved and much played bass - more so than any other bass I'd have thought. My take on it is that the 'new' doesn't alway replace the 'old' like you'd expect, they often end up running along side each other ( for instance, vinyl never died with the advent of CD ).

It's a good question, and each to his own obviously, but I personally can't imagine myself buying a new bass - I wouldn't spend thousands on a relic, but I do prefer stuff thats 'played in'.

Pluck

Edited November 1, 2008 by sgt-pluck

[deaver]

Once you get past 40 it all starts to make sense. Trust me.

[6stringbassist]

I don't see the point in them personally, for a start the majority of them don't have enough strings.

[ARGH]

...Or enough frets

[ped]

[quote name='sgt-pluck' post='319852' date='Nov 1 2008, 09:54 PM']Some of it is about 'antiqueness'. Fenders in particular are so iconic that they command huge prices just as vintage cars, motorcycles etc etc do.

Some of it is about 'mojo'. Real or imagined, playing an old bass that has been around the block a bit appeals to some ( me included ). And usually a good instrument is only still around because it is a good instrument, otherwise it would have ended up on tip years ago.

You could also argue that much of the modern technology hasn't necessarily moved things forward all that much. It's interesting that despite all the advances in electrickery and manufacturing complexity, the humble p-bass whether bought new or second-hand is still a much-loved and much played bass - more so than any other bass I'd have thought. My take on it is that the 'new' doesn't alway replace the 'old' like you'd expect, they often end up running along side each other ( for instance, vinyl never died with the advent of CD ).

It's a good question, and each to his own obviously, but I personally can't imagine myself buying a new bass - I wouldn't spend thousands on a relic, but I do prefer stuff thats 'played in'.

Pluck[/quote]

Good stuff, well said.

ped

P.s should edit to say that personally I think a bass can feel 'right' weather it is new or old, cheap or expensive - the only way is to try them. Prices for vintage basses are occasionally silly and take advantage.

[BigRedX]

They don't need any more frets - you can't get at all the ones that are there so why have more?

Plus I'm over 40. IMO there's nothing big or clever about a battered instrument.

Edited November 1, 2008 by BigRedX

[budget bassist]

I don't really see the draw either. In my opinion, instruments are improved upon for a reason, and it doesn't make sense to pay more for something because it's old. i'd rather have something reasonably new that isn't battered to sh*t, and if i did have a mojo'd bass, i'd want it to be MY mojo, not someone elses.

[Buzz]

I can understand why on an emotional level, and it's also to do on a technical level as well, you're quite right, manufacturing has improved, and companies like Fender for example use that technology to turn out lots and lots of carbon copy guitars, hence why a Fender USA bass is around £750-800 new yet a Custom Shop hand built one is £3k.
Early Fenders by all accounts were more hands on and had much better QC because of it, that's part of their percieved value. If you also take into account the manufacturing tolerances as well from a construction and electrical side, 50 years ago the tolerances were wider and everything was a bit less precise and sterile, part of that *might* contribute to the sound. You could also look at fretting the neck, now on mass produced it's done by machine, back then I think it was done by hand mostly.


Saying that, I actually don't see the percieved worth of an older fender vs new ones, the new ones now have better bridges, rolled edges on fingerboards and a few other design tweaks, and frets can be sorted out with a stoning anyway if there is a problem. Perhaps there are a few examples, such as maple/rosewood with blocks, the 3 bolt neck, or a 70's pup distance on a jazz that are worth the money (current '70s style ones are MIM I think rather than MIA) as you can't get a new version currently.

[lonestar]

I read an interview with Flea in Bass Guitar mag saying something along the lines that he liked old fender Jazzes because they'd had a lot of time forgetting that they were once trees and are now guitars.

Personally I think that they make 'em better now anyway.

Edited November 2, 2008 by lonestar

[bass_ferret]

Stradivarius. Nuff said?

[Buzz]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='319922' date='Nov 2 2008, 12:47 AM']Stradivarius. Nuff said?[/quote]

Dunno on that, while I'm not a violin player, I do think with them reaching the millions that while they may be really good instruments, made of rare wood, handcarved with lots of love, I can't help but think that 90/95% of the "price" is name alone, with people just percieving it sounds better because they expect it to.

Don't get me wrong, although instrument making is an artform, and can go wrong at any and every stage, it's very forumulatic for the "base" model. They've all got to have X, attached to Y via the use of Z etc... Not to mention they're instruments that amplify sounds by vibration in the wood, who knows, but other violins may have been made from the same trees/batch of wood, but by an equally skilled but unknown builder, they wouldn't fetch a fraction of the price if if they sounded better.

[neepheid]

IN MY HUMBLE DRUNK OPINION

There isn't anything good about old basses.

Good players can do something decent with a poor bass, a poor player can't do something decent with any bass - vintage or otherwise.

Mojo is a myth, scratches, gouges and dings are real and a source of much pain to me. Mojoed cars of course sell for such premium prices. Relicing is a joke.

Crazy people. May your basses stay shiny and pristine.

[lowdown]

[quote name='ARGH' post='319882' date='Nov 1 2008, 11:48 PM']...Or enough frets[/quote]

Or no frets.




Garry

[Guest]

Take one 60's jazz or precision and sand off the finish how much is it worth now? personally i think they cost a lot because people are prepared to pay the silly sums involved. If you want a vintage sounding instrument you can buy pickups and strings to recreate that sound, apart from the magnets loosing a little of their field do pickups really mature over time? does the wood on a solid body bass really improve tonally over decades? what about a neck which has spent 30+ years maturing under tension?
It think buying buying a vintage instrument is an emotional decision rather than one based on playability or tone, if we took that refinished vintage fender and hung it in a guitar shop unidentifiable how many of us would pay 3k for it in a blind test?

I would love a 69 jazz, preferably one made on my birthday, it would be a great thing to own but i wouldn't expect it to be an earth shatteringly great instrument, i still want one though. P.S. it's my 40th next year

[Happy Jack]

Why do people like vintage cars? Why not buy a fibreglass replica so there's no rust. You could fit the engine out of a new Mondeo to achieve total reliability while using lead-free petrol and producing much-reduced emissions. Obviously you'd use modern suspension units rather than those silly leaf-spring thingies. And all that awful leather to clean, especially once it gets all cracked - put some nice PVC in there instead.

The market is flooded with cheap copies of some of my vintage basses. Many of those cheap copies play really very well and are pretty good basses in their own right. Doesn't stop them being cheap copies, mind.

Why are old basses so good? I'll go into politician mode and say, that's the wrong question. Confucious he say, "There are two types of fool. One says, 'This is old, so it's good.' Other says, 'This is new, so it's better'."

Old basses aren't "good" or "bad" because they're old. What they are is "old".

1) Old basses (and other instruments, of course) are rare, certainly rare compared to new ones.
2) Old basses which have survived for 30/40/50 years are usually either rather good to play (else they'd have been junked by now) or have lived most of their lives in a case under the bed (and are in pristine condition).
3) Old and rare things almost invariably attract a market. One of the best-known shops in Denmark Street just calls itself [i]Vintage & Rare[/i].
4) Old basses which command a premium price (for whatever reason, no matter how silly) are a good investment. That doesn't always mean you'll make a profit, but it does mean that at least you'll minimise your losses.
5) In the entirely hypothetical example of a bass player with too many basses, perhaps even someone on this very forum, wishing to buy yet another bass, it becomes possible to explain to Mrs. Happy (damn! what a giveaway) that the money isn't being "spent" ... it's being "invested".
6) Old basses are also good at sparking discussions. It's not common to see threads started on subjects such as The New Nevada P-Bass, or Do 2007 Westfields sound better than 2005 Westfields?
7) Finally, old basses have history. Blindingly obvious, of course, but a surprising number of people forget about it. Every time I pick up a vintage bass, I'm aware of an invisible chain of earlier owners/players picking it up before me, and I wonder what they played and whether or not they were better than me. Yeh I know, lots of people look at me a bit funny when I say things like that. I'm really not a New-Age-y sort of person y'know, I just have a keen sense of history.

[gafbass02]

I actually totally get that tbh. I often wonder about my basses life before me.

[Paul Cooke]

I "murdered" my old P-Bass... I'd been given a cast off '69 sunburst finish P-Bass by my cousin as he'd given up and handed it down to me... I was in a punk band in the late 70's and went and painted it gloss white with emulsion so it looked like Sid's P-Bass... I honestly didn't know what I had in my hands back then... to the vast majority of us, it was a clunker Fender bass and then was less than ten years old... I sold it on in the mid 80's as I needed the money to buy a car and kit out a nursery... bit difficult to transport new born and mother around on the back of a motorbike or in the Bond Bug... and I was seriously strapped for cash. I believe I got £300 for it, which was pretty good considering what I'd done to it...

[Tusknia]

You watch in 40 years when you pay £12,000 for a vintage 2005 American J with an S-1 switch!

[budget bassist]

Don't get me wrong, i'd quite like a battered old 3TS jazz bass to just hang on my wall, it looks good, but i'd like to get it there myself, rather than buying it with lots of mojo, and i do think they're way overpriced anyway.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='320021' date='Nov 2 2008, 11:10 AM']Why do people like vintage cars? Why not buy a fibreglass replica so there's no rust. You could fit the engine out of a new Mondeo to achieve total reliability while using lead-free petrol and producing much-reduced emissions. Obviously you'd use modern suspension units rather than those silly leaf-spring thingies. And all that awful leather to clean, especially once it gets all cracked - put some nice PVC in there instead.

The market is flooded with cheap copies of some of my vintage basses. Many of those cheap copies play really very well and are pretty good basses in their own right. Doesn't stop them being cheap copies, mind.

Why are old basses so good? I'll go into politician mode and say, that's the wrong question. Confucious he say, "There are two types of fool. One says, 'This is old, so it's good.' Other says, 'This is new, so it's better'."

Old basses aren't "good" or "bad" because they're old. What they are is "old".

1) Old basses (and other instruments, of course) are rare, certainly rare compared to new ones.
2) Old basses which have survived for 30/40/50 years are usually either rather good to play (else they'd have been junked by now) or have lived most of their lives in a case under the bed (and are in pristine condition).
3) Old and rare things almost invariably attract a market. One of the best-known shops in Denmark Street just calls itself [i]Vintage & Rare[/i].
4) Old basses which command a premium price (for whatever reason, no matter how silly) are a good investment. That doesn't always mean you'll make a profit, but it does mean that at least you'll minimise your losses.
5) In the entirely hypothetical example of a bass player with too many basses, perhaps even someone on this very forum, wishing to buy yet another bass, it becomes possible to explain to Mrs. Happy (damn! what a giveaway) that the money isn't being "spent" ... it's being "invested".
6) Old basses are also good at sparking discussions. It's not common to see threads started on subjects such as The New Nevada P-Bass, or Do 2007 Westfields sound better than 2005 Westfields?
7) Finally, old basses have history. Blindingly obvious, of course, but a surprising number of people forget about it. Every time I pick up a vintage bass, I'm aware of an invisible chain of earlier owners/players picking it up before me, and I wonder what they played and whether or not they were better than me. Yeh I know, lots of people look at me a bit funny when I say things like that. I'm really not a New-Age-y sort of person y'know, I just have a keen sense of history.[/quote]

In the main I've got to agree with Happy Jack's comments on this topic... But I think it's fair to say that:

(i) not all new basses are good
(ii) not all old vintage basses are good

However and in my personal experience, when I've played a vintage bass that is good, then they've been really, really good. I can't explain why and I'm quite prepared to admit that I might be fooling myself but I've owned a pre-Ernie Ball Stingray that was fabulous and much better (to my ears anyway) than any Ernie Ball 'Ray I've played. CK's vintage Ray is a phenomonal sounding instrument and a good case in point..

Having said that, I had a '66 Jazz once and I didn't like it much at all so who knows; maybe it's just as well we all like different things?

[Kev]

old fender basses are something id probably buy if i was in my 30's/40's and on 40k a year, but would never ever save up for as theres so much 'better' out there for that kinda money

[GreeneKing]

A very good question Peter

I know there are a lot of folk on BC who get very excited by old battered Fender P's and J's. Each to their own.

I smiled when someone had a nice looking pale blue P bass for sale and someone posted a picture of their battered old one and the comments were all 'Phoooaaah' etc.

I just reflect that they were made with mediocre woods and componants and the construction left much to be desired. That aging and a battering makes them more desirable never ceases to amaze me.

I'm in my 50's so it aint true that age makes it sensible.

Take my mint Bass Collection 4 stringer, ultra playable and tonally superb. It's beautifully made. It it were an inferior Fender (imo) it's be worth a packet.

I'd be lucky to get £180 for it (it's not for sale).

Marketing hype and nostalgia?

Peter

[Telebass]

Some good takes on this.

My view is that vintage is fine if you've the wonga. A tatty, well-played bass is likely to be one that you'd play and go 'whoa! that's nice!' whereas a pristine '64 Sonic Blue P might be pristine and still in its case because it's an absolute dog...

I have been through a few basses that were not original to me. A '68 Jazz/mint/dog. A '69 Telecaster/beat to crap/amazing. '96 51RI/mint/amazing. 80s Tokai P/pristine/amazing. New ones: 2xStd Jazz - nice, but....Warwick Streamer Std 5 - see below...there's no telling, really.

Mainly, I buy what I can afford new, because, in the main, I like my basses to be [i][b]mine[/b][/i].

I got the 51RI from Mickeyboro of this parish, we did a swap between that and a Warwick Streamer Standard 5 that I bought new-old-stock but didn't get on with. I wasn't expecting a gem, just a good backup for the black MIM Precision. But it's now number one, all done up in metalwork and finger rest as per 51 specs, nice tweed case, and it [b][i]ROCKS[/i][/b].

You just never know...