Musicality?

[NewDad]

Once you know the notes, stop comparing your bass playing to the original and focus on empathising with everything else going on in the music.

[Bobthedog]

Thanks all. This is really helpful stuff.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Bobthedog' timestamp='1500740677' post='3339915']
Okay, I have been playing a few years now as a bedroom warrior but more and more looking to go public. I have a great tutor who has brought me on leaps and bounds in the last 6 months, but one thing I struggle with is something I think people call "musicality".

Irrespective of what I change / adapt in my playing, I do not sound like the original bass line. Generally I play all on my Roscoe 5, but have Fender P and Jazz bases and a Dingwall Combustion 5.

I only play covers and always along to You Tube videos and CDs.


How do you define musicality?

Tone, note length, timing, attack / decay? A blend of all these things? Emotion / feel are they such a thing in shaping what come out to the listeners' ears? Are amps and cabs part of this (I switch between the Glock / BF BT II and my Markbass combo). I do know I play with a very light touch and need to butch up a bit on that, but what else can make a difference?


Even on simple songs like Stir It Up where I match all the notes, when they are meant to happen and the right length, it still does not sound like reggae, just a collection of the right notes at the right time but without the love.
[/quote]

Have you tried videoing your practice sessions so you can look at your technique in the cold light of day? Camera 'phones are perfect for the job. It's a great way to really [i]see[/i] yourself. You can not judge what others hear or see while you are playing.

You'll get there in small increments. Just don't loose the will and go stagnant like I have a few times in the past.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1500757437' post='3340065']
So you're playing all the right notes in all the right places. That's a good start. Many people struggle with that one for years!

Try and play what other players play but don't try to sound like them. Do it all sounding like you and in the end you'll have developed your own identity on bass. Keep playing and building up your mind/ear/hand coordination.

It sounds to me like you're ready for the next step. [size=6][b]Playing with other musicians.[/b][/size] Find where your local jam nights are and start checking them out. Join a band. Don't be put off by anything. Just keep working at it and you'll be improving every second you're playing.
[/quote]

The best point yet. It's crucial to do ensemble. Bass really isn't a solo instrument.

[pete.young]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1500746027' post='3339970']

What i have found over many years is that musicians who play in orchestral type situations play exactly what the music tells them to and in perfect timing. That's great for what they are doing. Put them with guys who don't read manuscript and they are out of their comfort zone and don't generally blend with jamming musicians.
[/quote]

My experience over many years, including orchestral work, brass bands, wind bands and many other genres, is that everyone is different. Some of the best musicians I've met for improvising are classically trained.

Normally there is a great deal of interpretation, encouraged and shaped by the conductor and musical director.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Have you tried playing your favourite lines to just a click, or unaccompanied?

[Yank]

I teach music on the side. When working with students learning to read, sometimes they play the notes in the right place but something is missing. When, for example, playing Bach's "Minuet in G Major" , a beautiful piece, it helps to think of the people of that time in their huge dresses. When dancing, they made small, stately movements. You have to let the piece breathe properly, instead of rushing through the notes. Sometimes a synth doing, say, a flute sound, won't sound right unless the keyboardist breathes like a flute player would. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's more to playing a part than just the note in the right place, or maybe I'm being too esoteric. Would a punk bass sound right if you play like you're happy instead of angry?

[Dan Dare]

I'd suggest that you need to give it more time. You say you've been playing mainly by yourself for a few (is that 3, or 5, or?) years. Musicality, or whatever we call it, is a subtle thing and not instantly acquired. It comes with experience and must be worked for. It's a state of mind, not a physical skill and mainly concerned with understanding. If it could be bought over the counter, everyone would be playing for a living. Others suggest good things to try above. I'd add that you should learn some theory, so that you know why you're doing what you do as well as how.

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='Yank' timestamp='1500808727' post='3340253']
I teach music on the side. When working with students learning to read, sometimes they play the notes in the right place but something is missing. When, for example, playing Bach's "Minuet in G Major" , a beautiful piece, it helps to think of the people of that time in their huge dresses. When dancing, they made small, stately movements. You have to let the piece breathe properly, instead of rushing through the notes. Sometimes a synth doing, say, a flute sound, won't sound right unless the keyboardist breathes like a flute player would. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's more to playing a part than just the note in the right place, or maybe I'm being too esoteric. Would a punk bass sound right if you play like you're happy instead of angry?
[/quote]

Think this is quite a good explanation of it.

Dave

[Bobthedog]

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1500804538' post='3340224']
Have you tried playing your favourite lines to just a click, or unaccompanied?
[/quote]

[color=#ff0000]Yup and regularly too.[/color]

[quote name='Yank' timestamp='1500808727' post='3340253']
I teach music on the side. When working with students learning to read, sometimes they play the notes in the right place but something is missing. When, for example, playing Bach's "Minuet in G Major" , a beautiful piece, it helps to think of the people of that time in their huge dresses. When dancing, they made small, stately movements. You have to let the piece breathe properly, instead of rushing through the notes. Sometimes a synth doing, say, a flute sound, won't sound right unless the keyboardist breathes like a flute player would. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's more to playing a part than just the note in the right place, or maybe I'm being too esoteric. Would a punk bass sound right if you play like you're happy instead of angry?
[/quote]

[color=#ff0000]I think this is quite key for me to work on. I am always still concentrating on the note and timing. Thank you[/color]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1500809644' post='3340267']
I'd suggest that you need to give it more time. You say you've been playing mainly by yourself for a few (is that 3, or 5, or?) years. Musicality, or whatever we call it, is a subtle thing and not instantly acquired. It comes with experience and must be worked for. It's a state of mind, not a physical skill and mainly concerned with understanding. If it could be bought over the counter, everyone would be playing for a living. Others suggest good things to try above. I'd add that you should learn some theory, so that you know why you're doing what you do as well as how.
[/quote]

[color="#ff0000"]Three years but the first two were literally just passing grades by rote. I never understood why I was doing things, I just did what I was told. My new tutor is mixing theory with practice and that is making a hell of a difference.[/color]

[scalpy]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpp7oxrBUq0

Bonkers, but a fantastic watch.

[ambient]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1500793108' post='3340146']
Bass really isn't a solo instrument.
[/quote]

Bass makes a fantastic solo instrument. It's down to the player and their repertoire.

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1500746027' post='3339970']
What i have found over many years is that musicians who play in orchestral type situations play exactly what the music tells them to and in perfect timing. That's great for what they are doing. Put them with guys who don't read manuscript and they are out of their comfort zone and don't generally blend with jamming musicians. Its the same when non readers are put with properly trained musicians they will also be out of their depth to a degree.
They don't feel the music in the same way. I find they are more clinical in their playing.
[/quote]

I think this is a very much used and factually incorrect statement.

I play very often with a group of musicians who are all classically trained, they're totally able to improvise, in fact they're some of the best improvisers out there. They're not held back by any lack of theoretical knowledge, or by any lack of technical ability. Many non-trained musicians I've played with always fall back on the same trusted and often cliched lines and riffs, lacking the knowledge to play anything else. The classical musician's technical ability is also phenomenal, they've spent years honing their skills, so they can play whatever is put in front of them. They don't get the chance to go away and practice it at home, or watch Youtube videos.

A lot of playing a classical piece is down to the musician's skill in interpreting the chart. That's what makes one person's performance different to another musician's.

Edited July 23, 2017 by ambient

[Dad3353]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1500817341' post='3340332']
[media]http://youtu.be/Wpp7oxrBUq0[/media]

Bonkers, but a fantastic watch.
[/quote]

As brilliantly illustrated in the video above ^^, a great deal of the expressivity comes from the interplay between the instruments and the song, the story, the lyrics. Even in classical 'orchestral' music, there is an underlying story, with its ultimate expression in the form of opera.
The music, in the majority of modern music, is a support for the text, with much meaning stripped away without that all-important part of the ensemble. Try thinking the words, and their meaning and feel, while playing, not just the notes of your instrument. Sing along, if you can; that, in itself, is good practice.
Just my tuppence-worth.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Dad3353

[TimR]

What you're talking about is phrasing.

If you had a conversation with someone, each word might be the right word, it might be exactly in the right place but if you don't put the right infection on each word, it will sound dull, it even might not convey the right meaning.

Music is usually broken up into 2,4,8 or even 16 bar phrases.

Concentrate on learning a tune phrase by phrase, sing it to yourself and get the feel for the rhythm and the accents before you pick up your bass. Don't worry too much if you can't pitch your singing correctly, it's the feel you are after.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1500818268' post='3340339']
As brilliantly illustrated in the video above ^^, a great deal of the expressivity comes from the interplay between the instruments and the song, the story, the lyrics. Even in classical 'orchestral' music, there is an underlying story, with its ultimate expression in the form of opera.
The music, in the majority of modern music, is a support for the text, with much meaning stripped away without that all-important part of the ensemble. Try thinking the words, and their meaning and feel, while playing, not just the notes of your instrument. Sing along, if you can; that, in itself, is good practice.
Just my tuppence-worth.
[/quote]

Yep.
As a side note, in the opening of the video, even the page turner has s great feel and certainly knows where to turn the page.


[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1500818254' post='3340337']

Bass makes a fantastic solo instrument. It's down to the player and their repertoire.

I think this is a very much used and factually incorrect statement.

A lot of playing a classical piece is down to the musician's skill in interpreting the chart. That's what makes one person's performance different to another musician's.
[/quote]

Yep, also agree with this above as well.

[ambient]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1500818268' post='3340339']
As brilliantly illustrated in the video above ^^, a great deal of the expressivity comes from the interplay between the instruments and the song, the story, the lyrics. Even in classical 'orchestral' music, there is an underlying story, with its ultimate expression in the form of opera.
The music, in the majority of modern music, is a support for the text, with much meaning stripped away without that all-important part of the ensemble. Try thinking the words, and their meaning and feel, while playing, not just the notes of your instrument. Sing along, if you can; that, in itself, is good practice.
Just my tuppence-worth.
[/quote]

This is a brilliant reply .

One of my students is 79. He has no ambition to play with people, he just loves learning to play, and playing. We're looking at melodies, particularly those from standards. The guy's a huge fan of Frank Sinatra, so he's learning to play the melodies from a lot of the Sinatra songs, and a few Beatles songs.

I keep telling him to sing the song to himself as he's playing, make a connection between the notes he's playing and the song. Phrase them like Frank would.

It's feel that's lacking in the OPs playing, from what I understand anyway. Like I said earlier, how the notes are played, not what they're played on. Just mechanically playing the notes wont sound right.

This is why classically trained musicians are so good, they don't actually just mechanically play the notes.

Get up and dance, sing the song to yourself as you're playing, move about, get the 'feel' of the music, the spirit inside you.

Often when I play, maybe jazz or whatever, or my own stuff, I close my eyes, and visualise the music that I'm playing. For jazz, which really is best played on an upright acoustic, I imagine I'm playing one, I think deep, and woody tones.

Maybe sounds weird, but it works for me.

[Burns-bass]

Just to add to the wonderful comments here, you're trying to play like someone else without trying to establish your own voice on the instrument. This is obviously difficult because you're comparing yourself with (I imagine) some wonderful bass players, and feel like you're coming off second best.

Happens to us all, and takes time. If you want to mimic others, that's cool - we all love amazing, versatile players. What changed things for me was working in a couple of originals bands and spending a lot of time learning to sound like me. I went through wanting to sound like Andy Rourke, James Jameson, Jaco (pity my poor parents listening to that), and a whole host of others. Now I'm happy to sound like me.

Looking at this from a different perspective, when I first started playing DB I just found myself unable to play without sounding awful. Part of that was (my teacher advised me) nerves and the other half was just feeling tense, which cramped me up and made me sound (forgive me) like sh*t.

A massive part of music is having confidence, and that takes an awful lot of time to get. I can pick up an electric bass and I'm fine, but give me a DB and I feel the same as you do.

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1500818254' post='3340337']
Bass makes a fantastic solo instrument. It's down to the player and their repertoire.



I think this is a very much used and factually incorrect statement.

I play very often with a group of musicians who are all classically trained, they're totally able to improvise, in fact they're some of the best improvisers out there. They're not held back by any lack of theoretical knowledge, or by any lack of technical ability.
[color=#ff0000]Maybe its just the ones i know and i do admit it's a limited number. As an example tho I know 2 off professional Cello players. One can ad-lib as well as anyone i know while the other is more reliant on the correct notes at the right time and struggles to do the ad-lib or take it out of its box if that makes any more sense. He is more like the other professionally trained musicians i know. [/color]
[color=#ff0000]I'm not disagreeing with your comment as you sound like you have more experience with properly trained musicians.[/color]

Many non-trained musicians I've played with always fall back on the same trusted and often cliched lines and riffs, lacking the knowledge to play anything else. [color=#ff0000]Think this is the flip side of what i was saying and totally agree, probably myself included.[/color]

The classical musician's technical ability is also phenomenal, they've spent years honing their skills, so they can play whatever is put in front of them.
They don't get the chance to go away and practice it at home, or watch Youtube videos.
[color=#ff0000]This is the bit i've come across. They can play whatever is put down in front of them and usually exceptionally well but take that away and how do they cope in a band that strays of the song or has to cover up a mistake. ? That's a serious query and not a slight on anyone. [/color]
[color=#ff0000]I'm guessing that what you're saying is that they learn to express themselves and put their own slant on the music in the same way a non-trained musician does but more technically because of their training.[/color]


A lot of playing a classical piece is down to the musician's skill in interpreting the chart. That's what makes one person's performance different to another musician's.
[color=#ff0000]Think this kind of answers my question above. [color=#ff0000] [/color][/color]

[/quote]

Definitely agree that when you hear a properly trained bassist he normally sounds more fluent and effortless. His technique and the various runs he uses are far more interesting than the average non trained bassist and i personally find it more entertaining. I would have to say that usually they are bassists at the top of their game. Not sure what the average properly trained bassist sounds like

It is interesting the different take on properly trained V non-trained on playing styles and ability.

Dave

[sammybee]

I think I'm still looking for my voice. But I'm having a lot of fun searching for it.

The single most important thing for me, is playing with another musician(s). Get a drum machine (or if space/neighbours allow a drummer), a friendly guitar player, and your goodself. Just play, jam, get into the groove and flow.

Don't play covers, just let your voice come through your fingers.

[cytania]

What ambient says about visualising double bass soundings and also I like to think of how a tuba sounds. Getting that timbre with your fingers can be improving for many songs.

[Bobthedog]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1500818508' post='3340341']
What you're talking about is phrasing.

If you had a conversation with someone, each word might be the right word, it might be exactly in the right place but if you don't put the right infection on each word, it will sound dull, it even might not convey the right meaning.

Music is usually broken up into 2,4,8 or even 16 bar phrases.

Concentrate on learning a tune phrase by phrase, sing it to yourself and get the feel for the rhythm and the accents before you pick up your bass. Don't worry too much if you can't pitch your singing correctly, it's the feel you are after.
[/quote]
[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1500820331' post='3340362']
This is a brilliant reply .

One of my students is 79. He has no ambition to play with people, he just loves learning to play, and playing. We're looking at melodies, particularly those from standards. The guy's a huge fan of Frank Sinatra, so he's learning to play the melodies from a lot of the Sinatra songs, and a few Beatles songs.

I keep telling him to sing the song to himself as he's playing, make a connection between the notes he's playing and the song. Phrase them like Frank would.

It's feel that's lacking in the OPs playing, from what I understand anyway. Like I said earlier, how the notes are played, not what they're played on. Just mechanically playing the notes wont sound right.

This is why classically trained musicians are so good, they don't actually just mechanically play the notes.

Get up and dance, sing the song to yourself as you're playing, move about, get the 'feel' of the music, the spirit inside you.

Often when I play, maybe jazz or whatever, or my own stuff, I close my eyes, and visualise the music that I'm playing. For jazz, which really is best played on an upright acoustic, I imagine I'm playing one, I think deep, and woody tones.

Maybe sounds weird, but it works for me.


[/quote]

Lots of rally helpful stuff here from all, but these are especially helping me try and put a picture together. Thank you.

Re post 44, I do use a drum machine too. In fact I have no excuses any more other than me!

[sammybee]

You need more than a drum machine, you need another player(s) (not bass) to play with, to bounce off, to groove with...

Take a lesson with someone who isn't a bass teacher. You might be very suprised at the result!

[Bobthedog]

[quote name='sammybee' timestamp='1500835838' post='3340519']
You need more than a drum machine, you need another player(s) (not bass) to play with, to bounce off, to groove with...

Take a lesson with someone who isn't a bass teacher. You might be very suprised at the result!
[/quote]

Agreed re the drummer and have one lined up for a couple of weeks time. Re the bass teacher, I am not sure what you mean - my previous tutor was a guitarist and that was part of the problem for me. Do you mean with a player of something else from the rhythm section?

[mikel]

I would say, playing with other musicians is the key to becoming more "musical". You can play along to recordings, but you are still "playing along" ie following. Playing with others is helping to drive the music and bouncing off other musicians.

[sammybee]

[quote name='Bobthedog' timestamp='1500839725' post='3340555']
Agreed re the drummer and have one lined up for a couple of weeks time. Re the bass teacher, I am not sure what you mean - my previous tutor was a guitarist and that was part of the problem for me. Do you mean with a player of something else from the rhythm section?
[/quote]

I still take lessons, from a guy who although 'can' play bass plays other instruments primarily piano and guitar much much better (and is more enthusiastic about music in a wider sense than just the bass - the whole picture if you like). All we do is play - although much of what we do 'pushes me' on bass, we rarely talk/learn about technique. I've had 'bass' teachers in the past & they were great helping me with technique issues but really poor at facilitating learning about what it is to play bass with other people.

You're about 1/2 an hour's drive from him if you fancied me putting in touch with him.