Musicality?

[peteb]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1500830187' post='3340452']
Definitely agree that when you hear a properly trained bassist he normally sounds more fluent and effortless. His technique and the various runs he uses are far more interesting than the average non trained bassist and i personally find it more entertaining. I would have to say that usually they are bassists at the top of their game. Not sure what the average properly trained bassist sounds like

It is interesting the different take on properly trained V non-trained on playing styles and ability.

Dave
[/quote]
I'm afraid that I don't agree with that at all. You won't hear anyone more fluent and and who makes playing look effortless than Pino Palladino and he had no 'conventional' training. Same with Billy Sheehan, Jeff Beck and countless others. There are many benefits to musical training, but I would say that the one thing that it doesn't provide is fluency!

[ambient]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1500845555' post='3340618']

I'm afraid that I don't agree with that at all. You won't hear anyone more fluent and and who makes playing look effortless than Pino Palladino and he had no 'conventional' training. Same with Billy Sheehan, Jeff Beck and countless others. There are many benefits to musical training, but I would say that the one thing that it doesn't provide is fluency!
[/quote]

For every Pino and Billy there are thousands of others who never really achieve much.

What Pino et al have is talent. Much like people who go to college and study music, the audition for some of these is a nightmare.

[Bobthedog]

[quote name='sammybee' timestamp='1500843985' post='3340597']

You're about 1/2 an hour's drive from him if you fancied me putting in touch with him.
[/quote]

Thank you and perhaps in the future My current tutor whilst now a pro bass player has other instrument background and is doing a great job as well as being hugely musically and educationally qualified. I am very happy with him and have moved on hugely since I started with him.

[peteb]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1500846857' post='3340632']
For every Pino and Billy there are thousands of others who never really achieve much.

What Pino et al have is talent. Much like people who go to college and study music, the audition for some of these is a nightmare.
[/quote]
Of course, Pino, Billy are exceptional. However, there are many great musicians without a formal music education who have the talent to cut it in the real world just as there are many who manage to get into music college who struggle.

Edited July 23, 2017 by peteb

[bazzbass]

here's what you need to do

Jam with someone, and just MAKE UP A BASSLINE

feel for the groove

playing a cover won't do it

[Phil Starr]

Honestly? Stop worrying about it.

Musicality isn't something with a definition or something that can be measured out on a 1-10 scale and i'd say is more about how you interact with other musicians. You'll only find out if you have musicality once you join a band. I'll stick my neck out and say a lot of it is about listening to the other band members and adapting to what is going along around you but I suspect no two of us really agree on what it is. If your tutor is the musician you describe ask him about getting to play with other people. He may know lot's of other musicians and be able to hitch you up with them.

Technically there'll be a number of reasons you don't sound like your playalong bassists. First you won't sit in the mix the way they do. If you are practicing you'll have yourself turned up so you can hear yourself over the original. That always sounds terrible, just listen to some of the isolated bass tracks or try mixing in the isolated track too loud over the original song. If you are listening to the bass in the original you'll be pausing slighly to hear that and are probably playing behind the beat. On top of that remember a top mixing engineer has probably spent hours getting just the right bass sound long after the bassist has left the room and may even have tidied up the sound and maybe over dubbed a second third or fourth take over the original to thicken up the sound or correct a mistake. You just can't compete so don't let it bother you.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1500818254' post='3340337']
Bass makes a fantastic solo instrument. It's down to the player and their repertoire...
[/quote]

I enjoy bass solos. It would be odd for any BC members not to enjoy them. Bass is not an instrument that non-bassists and in particular, non musos, would choose as the only musical accompaniment to a song however.

I stand by my words.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Bobthedog' timestamp='1500839725' post='3340555']
Agreed re the drummer and have one lined up for a couple of weeks time. Re the bass teacher, I am not sure what you mean - my previous tutor was a guitarist and that was part of the problem for me. Do you mean with a player of something else from the rhythm section?
[/quote]

I wasted over a month on this;

I had a guitarist try to tutor me. It wasn't asked for. I was going to do a bass accompaniment to his Open Mic night set and went 'round to his to record him playing with the intention of practising to the recording at home and turning up to play at the following week's Open Mic. I have successfully used this method before. He took the idea over and decided to impart his musical knowledge in weekly sessions for two hours at a time.

I am not one to turn down good knowledge especially as he had a good understanding of score, arrangement and composition. I only do tab for personal reasons but I occasionally refer to score for detail if I am doing a book study, for example. This though, was not a notion that he was finding easy to accept and the whole thing fell over because of it.

I'd suggest that a guitarist may not [i]see[/i] things from the low end very well. You could be better off with a tutor for whom bass is their "first" instrument.

[Bilbo]

I communicate in metaphors.

Think acting.

Reading a script out loud is doing that and nothing more.

The acting equivalent of Musicality would be in making the words mean something, communicating the emotions and intent of the author etc. One is mechanics, the other is Art.

[mikel]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1500885830' post='3340742']
I communicate in metaphors.

Think acting.

Reading a script out loud is doing that and nothing more.

The acting equivalent of Musicality would be in making the words mean something, communicating the emotions and intent of the author etc. One is mechanics, the other is Art.
[/quote]

This. Call it feel, empathy, groove, whatever. The great and even not so great players all have it and its got little to do with formal training, some of the best musicians I have ever played with over the last 50 odd years have been self taught and could not read music.

[ambient]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1500845555' post='3340618']
There are many benefits to musical training, but I would say that the one thing that it doesn't provide is fluency!
[/quote]

Yeah, OK .

He says, laughing hysterically 😊.

Edited July 24, 2017 by ambient

[Bobthedog]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1500885830' post='3340742']
I communicate in metaphors.

Think acting.

Reading a script out loud is doing that and nothing more.

The acting equivalent of Musicality would be in making the words mean something, communicating the emotions and intent of the author etc. One is mechanics, the other is Art.
[/quote]

I like this, it reinforces some earlier comments and makes good sense. Thank you

[peteb]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1500889551' post='3340788']
Yeah, OK .

He says, laughing hysterically .
[/quote]
To clarify, I would expect anyone who has managed to get through music school to be able to play fluently. Equally, I would expect that someone who is entirely self-taught and has been playing seriously at any sort of level for the same period of time it takes to graduate from music school to be just as fluent.

I am sure that a formal musical education gives a student many tools that it may be difficult for a self-taught player to obtain. However, I don’t think that playing fluently is one of them as I would expect any half decent player to be able to do that anyway.

[dmccombe7]

Maybe Fluency was the wrong description of what i was thinking about.
I'm not really sure how else to describe what i'm thinking off tho.
Musically trained bassists play runs that in my opinion self taught bassists rarely do. I say rarely because there are always exceptions to the rule.
As i said the ones i listen to are usually at the top of their game so maybe its the fact they've been playing for many years that they sound more natural and offer fast bass runs that i never hear your average self taught bassist play.

Hopefully that explains it a bit more.

Dave

[FinnDave]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1500882840' post='3340712']

I enjoy bass solos. It would be odd for any BC members not to enjoy them. Bass is not an instrument that non-bassists and in particular, non musos, would choose as the only musical accompaniment to a song however.
[/quote]

I'm not a fan of bass solos at all, especially that last more than 4 bars.

[mikel]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1500926452' post='3341155']
I'm not a fan of bass solos at all, especially that last more than 4 bars.
[/quote]

+1. I love the bass and I love playing the bass, but If asked to take a solo I always decline because it gives me no pleasure to play, or listen to one. I also play drums and hate drum solos with a passion.

[peteb]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1500926325' post='3341154']

Musically trained bassists play runs that in my opinion self taught bassists rarely do.

[/quote]
But you could argue that is another way of saying that a self taught player will player will play runs that a conventionally trained musician would rarely do.

Or, to put it another way, which guitar player would you rather listen to: Mike Stern or Paul Kossoff??

[funkgod]

BoB, take the leap "go public" and join a band,
what you hear in the bed room is not what you are going to hear with 4 or 5 other guys.
all you have learnt and your tone and feel will all come together after a time playing with others.
if you joining a band is too much of a leap then put an ad on something like JMB to get others local to play with
it will pay you back 10 fold
But enjoy whatever you do
keep us posted how you get on, im sure you will be buzzing for days

Edited July 24, 2017 by funkgod

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1500926452' post='3341155']
I'm not a fan of bass solos at all, especially that last more than 4 bars.
[/quote]

That's reinforcing my assertion that bass is not a solo instrument.

[lowdown]

I think any Instrument can be a solo performance Instrument or used to take a head solo. But, is the musician holding the Instrument capable of delivering a meaningful, musical, lyrical solo (soloing over changes, or a solo piece) ? While holding the attention of the listener ? Sadly, a lot of Bass players can not (although being excellent on general Bass duties) . That's for a variety of reasons and thinking, but the limitations are down to the player, not the Instrument (IMO of course, just based on what a I have seen and heard over the years).


I like listening to musicians on any Instrument, opening up and taking solos, doing/trying something different, so maybe I am a bit biased. I take my hat off to the likes of Steve Lawson and our own 'Ambient' who do whole solo gigs with just a Bass Guitar and a Looper pedal and/or Laptop.
Top stuff from those guys.

Edited July 25, 2017 by lowdown

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1500927651' post='3341164']
But you could argue that is another way of saying that a self taught player will player will play runs that a conventionally trained musician would rarely do.

Or, to put it another way, which guitar player would you rather listen to: Mike Stern or Paul Kossoff??
[/quote]

Good point hadn't thought of it that way.
Can't say i've made a point of listening to Mike Stern. Had to google who he was to be honest but now that i know who he is i probably have heard him over the years with Jaco and few others.
Is what you are suggesting that there are good riffs from all sides and its down to individual taste what you prefer. Both competent yet both different styles. ?
I would probably agree with that now that my eyes have been opened a bit.

I guess we all learn as we go along then

Dave

[Bobthedog]

[quote name='funkgod' timestamp='1500938723' post='3341252']
BoB, take the leap "go public" and join a band,
what you hear in the bed room is not what you are going to hear with 4 or 5 other guys.
all you have learnt and your tone and feel will all come together after a time playing with others.
if you joining a band is too much of a leap then put an ad on something like JMB to get others local to play with
it will pay you back 10 fold
But enjoy whatever you do
keep us posted how you get on, im sure you will be buzzing for days
[/quote]

Thanks FG and will do

[FinnDave]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1500967841' post='3341305']
That's reinforcing my assertion that bass is not a solo instrument.
[/quote]

Yes, but it also contradicts your statement that it would be odd for a Basschat member not to enjoy them. I am a Basschat member, and I do not particularly enjoy bass solos, so I have assume that by your definition I am odd.

I reckon I can live with it, though!

[Rocker]

Play with other musicians in a band. Or a band practice. Follow the drums. Keep it simple, roots etc. Lock in with the drums. Play loud enough as the drums/bass is the rhythm section of the band.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1501001455' post='3341703']
Yes, but it also contradicts your statement that it would be odd for a Basschat member not to enjoy them. I am a Basschat member, and I do not particularly enjoy bass solos, so I have assume that by your definition I am odd.

I reckon I can live with it, though!
[/quote]

If that's what you think I said.