Less Is More

[goingdownslow]

I like to think of the bass like the left hand on a piano accompanying the right hand. I like to hear it doing it's job, not overplayed or too sparse, playing just enough to make the song sound good.

From my favourite player...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2aPAqvp2Mw

[Misdee]

When people say "less is more" what they are saying is that in a given circumstance the music is best served by a more sparse approach. Nobody would argue with the efficacy of that.

But is less always more? Would The Who have made better music if John Entwhistle had adopted that ethos? Or Chris Squire with Yes? What about the Red Hot Chilli Peppers if Flea had been a shy retiring minimalist?

[LeftyP]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1500849077' post='3340643']
Really? I don't believe in that one at all. He wouldn't last 5 mins in any band I listen to.
[/quote]

Kat is a SHE!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Misdee' timestamp='1500908788' post='3340993']
When people say "less is more" what they are saying is that in a given circumstance the music is best served by a more sparse approach. Nobody would argue with the efficacy of that.

But is less always more? Would The Who have made better music if John Entwhistle had adopted that ethos? Or Chris Squire with Yes? What about the Red Hot Chilli Peppers if Flea had been a shy retiring minimalist?
[/quote]

Flea leaves a lot more gaps than you'd think.

[dave_bass5]

Enough is enough IMO. Playing less doesn't always do the job well enough, same as playing more than is needed.
This is another one of those silly phrases like 'the audience wont notice/care' Are we to assume there is a set number of notes in a piece of music that works and over that it does? Who sets this number in the first place?

[pbasspecial]

IMHO, I believe that bass players are generally easier going and have passive/less egotistical/beta personalities compared to some other musicians in the band that have 2 extra strings.

However, just because we may lack a force of personalities/control freakery, I don't feel we should automatically play second fiddle musically and accept a minor 'supporting role'.

I can play my instrument (and theirs) just as good as them, if not better. Be more confident. It's a great instrument. People really appreciate great bass playing. As Keith Richards said " Anyone can Rock but can they Roll"

[scalpy]

Other animals are a mighty fine band, I supported them (and Betty Boo!) the other day. She's a great bass player, copes with two out there drummers and 7 other people onstage. They can drink too!

There's plenty of ways to skin a cat, and arguing over what specific job the bass does is like arguing over the one way you should cook potatoes. Do what's right for the gig and make your other band mates smile.

[spongebob]

I've always been known as a player who sticks a lot of notes and fills in. Guess I'm influenced by 'busy' players. It's a style of playing I like, and it's also become my thing too. I bring my sound and style to the table.

Many players are great at a stripped-down feel - I'm not one of them. A player told me once that I played more notes in a song than he did in an entire gig!

When our drummer once said to me, 'less is more', I simply told him that he was wrong. More is more!

[ZilchWoolham]

I feel that often times, whether you argue that less is more or that more is more, an instrumentalists view on their instrument can ironically be quite reductive, in terms of what is should or shouldn't do. A composer, arranger or producer will often have a much better view of the big picture, and maybe more importantly, less of an ego to feed through performance. Adopting this role as opposed to the role of "just" the bassist will make it easier to see whether you should be playing the lead melody, a drone, or anything in between.

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='goingdownslow' timestamp='1500902653' post='3340943']
I like to think of the bass like the left hand on a piano accompanying the right hand. I like to hear it doing it's job, not overplayed or too sparse, playing just enough to make the song sound good.

From my favourite player...
[/quote]

But also known for putting quite a lot of notes in

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI1FT0a_bos[/media]

which also demonstrates the advances in cosmetic dentistry in the last 50 years!

Edited July 24, 2017 by Woodinblack

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1500900217' post='3340917']
Woodinblack, you are not alone re ARN, I recently went for an audition where i was specifically asked to play in the verse.
[/quote]

Yes, I was asked to as well, the band didn't like the quiet part in the verse.

[TimR]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1500898882' post='3340901']

...

I have even been known to <gasp> play notes in the verse of 'all right now'
[/quote]

This is exactly what she means. When you come in at the chorus the whole song gets a massive boost.

I have purchased a cowbell specifically for this song so I don't look like a spare grinning idiot during the verses.

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1500899937' post='3340914']
It's not an either or situation. The trick is to find the balance between melody and pure bass. I believe it's called harmony.
[/quote]

Harmony is two or more notes at the same time not clashing and has nothing to do with this as I am sure you know.

I don't really think there is a trick, I think there are as many tricks as there are bassists, and an equal number of interpretations of the right thing.
Some players, and some listeners really do want roots and fifths, some really do want the guy in chic. Neither is 'right' or 'wrong'.
Within that range there is a balance for different songs, but even at my most subdued it will be more than some peoples idea of busy, and vice versa.

[leroydiamond]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZ48AE3TOI

[scalpy]

Just we've forgotten by this point, this Kat from other animals in action, just to see if she knows what she's on about.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-vhUslWzxkc

[chris_b]

At 1.02, and throughout the video, there's a bass player with a beard.

Kat? Your letting yourself go!

[scalpy]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1500933941' post='3341227']
At 1.02, and throughout the video, there's a bass player with a beard.

Kat? Your letting yourself go!
[/quote]

Should have checked but forgot to mention they do instrument swopping! That guy also plays guitar and clarinet in the band. That was filmed at at yellow shark studios in Cheltenham, and the owner of that was playing drums when I supported them. I can testify Kat in the flesh is female. When an engineer friend of mine recorded them he was most smitten! Of course as a dedicated married musician I concentrated on her excellent note choice and rhythmic placement...

[ivansc]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1500898824' post='3340899']
So UK drummers have an individualistic approach because we don't have orchestras or marching bands?!?

I guess you're posting from your own experience but your generalisation doesn't bare any relation to my experiences
[/quote]

Nope - they just dont seem to "get" all the places between the beats like the Yanks do. I have played weith some of the best that both the US and the UK can offer over 60 years gigging experience and the vasdt majhority of US players can lay down a groove that just makes you want to join in. UK players unless heavily influenced by or playing with US musicians seem to be playing for themselves. Not just the drummers.

Willie Wilson`s (Pink Floyd) first band was with me. As were many others. Maybe the younger generation have improved but we have very few decent drummers or indeed bass players, guitarists, keyboardists locally.
Sad really bearing in mind Cambridges heritage in popular music from the 60s on.

Two things about your experience: don`t forget you COULD (not saying you are) be part of the problem without knowing it.

Also depending on what genres you play you may not be aware of it. All the metal genres seem to rely very little on rhythmic subtlety, so who knows?

Edited July 25, 2017 by ivansc

[cheddatom]

I guess you've just been unlucky. I'm mates with two outstanding drummers, both living locally to me, both only interesting in serving the song.

I even know a lead guitarist who won't show off unless you beg him to! And he plays through a Pod and sounds good!!!

EDIT: I know loads of intelligent musicians who know how to listen to the whole mix and "serve the song" but I mention these two drummers as they really are exceptional, like world class. Also both these guys played in orchestras growing up (as did I) and marching bands ruin my lie in on an annual basis

Edited July 25, 2017 by cheddatom

[Dad3353]

My experience (over decades...) of drummers on the Continent would echo the above ^^; I've very rarely seen any of 'em 'playing for themselves', at pro or semi-pro level, at concerts or festivals. Most (not all, but the vast majority...) are playing to the needs of the music, in whatever style, form trip-hop break-beat through to hard metal and all points west. As a drummer myself, I'd probably be more attentive to this than other instruments, so I wouldn't like to pronounce regarding guitars or keys, and I wouldn't be able to tell whether any musician has received formal tuition or not, so I would leave that out of the equation. I have found, though, that most drummers can read for percussion, at least (for the timing...), and many have at least a smattering of keyboard knowledge, too (for the notions of harmony, and for playing tuned percussion...). From the many US bands I've watched, I've not noticed any major difference in attitude; I wouldn't know of the more local US talent that don't tour Europe, though.

[stingrayPete1977]

I've never played in a band where the drummer plays for themselves only and I've played with a lot of drummers over the years, guitarists on the other hand......

[chris_b]

I know what Ivan is getting at. I have preferred US musicians since I started listening to music. They usually had/have such a great groove that wasn't/isn't always readily available over here. I put it down to the long hours they had to play, like Blue's usual 4 hour bar gigs. If you're playing for that amount of time you either get good or quit. Like our band that played 5 3/4 hour sets Mon to Thu and 6 sets on Fri and Sat for nearly a year on the US airbases in Germany. We were bloody good at our job when we came home. In the US they did marathons, in the UK we did sprints.You play less and more effectively when you know you've got another 4 hours to go.

IME the guys Ivan talks about were more prevalent in the 70's. I generally find better players around these days but I mostly play with pro or ex-pro players and that really is a big difference, not in ability but attitude and effectiveness.

[lowdown]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1500977447' post='3341393']
I know what Ivan is getting at. I have preferred US musicians since I started listening to music. They usually had/have such a great groove that wasn't/isn't always readily available over here. I put it down to the long hours they had to play, like Blue's usual 4 hour bar gigs. If you're playing for that amount of time you either get good or quit. Like our band that played 5 3/4 hour sets Mon to Thu and 6 sets on Fri and Sat for nearly a year on the US airbases in Germany. We were bloody good at our job when we came home. In the US they did marathons, in the UK we did sprints.You play less and more effectively when you know you've got another 4 hours to go.

IME the guys Ivan talks about were more prevalent in the 70's. I generally find better players around these days but I mostly play with pro or ex-pro players and that really is a big difference, not in ability but attitude and effectiveness.
[/quote]

Having been through that, I tend to agree with you and Ivan. Doing those bases with those long sets, certainly got my chops together (fingers and ears).

Over the years I have noticed that players who only 'Play for themselves' don't last very long in that particular working environment.
Any musician worth their sort would know when to play out, or when to reign it in. If not, Bass (or any Instrument) duties would be for bedroom purpose only (until the penny drops).
Experience will tell you what to play and when.

"Less Is More" and "Busy, Over playing" are different things. Busy can mean different things in different genres.

A lot of notes coming fast in this arrangement, but delivered with skilled musicianship (IMO of course).
A busy Timbale solo @ 3:50, but you can hear the melody in his playing.

http://youtu.be/tDo5rrdfNUs

[gjones]

I've replaced quite a few 'over playing' bass players in my time.

Guys who think that, just because the guitarist gets a solo on every song, that they should too.

Or bassists that like to show off their incredible slap technique, on a Johnny Cash song.

I can play roots and fifths all day long, if that's what the song needs.


I know this is an amusing cartoon of a drummer but the same thing applies in the case of bass players too.

[attachment=249810:attachment.jpg]

[gareth]

So true

It's the emotion is music that gets me, when the hairs on the back of your neck stand up

Think of solos that move you, for me

Santana on Sam pa ti, not some thousand note per second virtuoso

Jaco on portrait of Tracy

Stan Getz and JJ on funny valentine