Less Is More

[oldslapper]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1500980395' post='3341423']
I've replaced quite a few 'over playing' bass players in my time.

Guys who think that, just because the guitarist gets a solo on every song, that they should too.

Or bassists that like to show off their incredible slap technique, on a Johnny Cash song.

I can play roots and fifths all day long, if that's what the song needs.


I know this is an amusing cartoon of a drummer but the same thing applies in the case of bass players too.

[attachment=249810:attachment.jpg]
[/quote]

Good post.

My personal view is that playing a "simple" bass line, repetitively, in time, with consistent tone & volume, tastefully, with feel & dynamics, takes discipline and concentration......often without being noticed.

But as others have said, "serving the song" might involve consistently double hand tapping complex arpeggios at high speed throughout the song/set.

[SteveK]

"Less is More", It's a nice sounding phrase, and can be a handy phrase to roll out when creatively stumped!
Less is More... of what? Notes per verse/chorus?
Assuming that most of us are mere mortal musicians and not genii bass players that can create killer bass lines on the fly, then, I would suggest that "More" time/imagination/experience/talent etc applied might actually be... "More"(?)

[lowdown]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1500985482' post='3341472']
"Less is More", It's a nice sounding phrase, and can be a handy phrase to roll out when creatively stumped!
Less is More... of what? Notes per verse/chorus?
Assuming that most of us are mere mortal musicians and not genii bass players that can create killer bass lines on the fly, then, I would suggest that "More" time/imagination/experience/talent etc applied might actually be... "More"(?)
[/quote]

[cheddatom]

I think when people say it, they're talking about some "overplaying" which is not serving the song. This could be an unnecessary drum fill for example. The band would say "You know, sometimes less is more". The producer would say "leave that sh*t out!"

[chris_b]

If your are in Joe Dart and Nathan East's league then more is more and that is always a good thing.

For everyone else, less is more is just a polite way of telling you to stay neat and tidy and don't stray into a musical version of verbal diarrhoea.

[ivansc]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1500977447' post='3341393']
IME the guys Ivan talks about were more prevalent in the 70's. I generally find better players around these days but I mostly play with pro or ex-pro players and that really is a big difference, not in ability but attitude and effectiveness.
[/quote]

Some truth in this and I suppose its because I left the Nashville circuit, where if you don't cut it you don't work & returned to the UK club circuit, where there is still a dearth of people who want to do more than "bang out the ones the punters like".
Drummer in my recently-ceased gigging 60's band has chops (and technical education) for days, but had to be practically forced into playing LESS. Not different, just less.
But he has spent most of his working life either in prog rock bands or teaching. And YES the attitude and effectiveness bit is what I have been trying to get across.
Playing what fits, leaving enough space for everyone else & allowing the music to breathe.

Edited July 25, 2017 by ivansc

[thodrik]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1500986917' post='3341491']
I think when people say it, they're talking about some "overplaying" which is not serving the song. This could be an unnecessary drum fill for example. The band would say "You know, sometimes less is more". The producer would say "leave that sh*t out!"
[/quote]

That is my interpretation as well. I sometimes find it a bit amusing though when very limited players praise the virtues of simple bass lines but at the same time have a dig at anyone who writes more complicated parts and fits them into a song.

I have seen so many interviews of limited players giving quotes along the lines of 'you know, I totally could play more complicated parts, but I deliberately keep my bass parts simple because I'm really not into ostentatious playing and I really want to take a more mature approach towards the instrument', as if they they had the technical chops of Marcus Miller or Billy Sheehan but were just holding themselves back for the sake of the horrible indie/rock/metal song I can't stand listening to. To that I would (sarcastically) say that 'Less is more if you are capable of more. If you are only capable of less then less is just less.'

[TimR]

Even Billy Sheehan and Marcus Miller play quarter note roots in some tunes.

.

Edited July 25, 2017 by TimR

[thodrik]

Exactly. They do it when they think the song requires it, not because it is the only thing that they can play.

[Barking Spiders]

The 'less is more ' attitude is similar to when ugly to average looking people say ' looks aren't important it's personality that counts'. I'm all for players of all types of instrument holding back when they need to but not for a whole song. At some point I wanna hear them let rip and show what they're made of. I like to see virtuosity pumped up to the max and make a point of learning from DVDs and You Tube clips from the best in the business. I want to learn bass techniques from Vic Wootten or Billy Sheehan not some bloke in a crappy indie band

Edited July 26, 2017 by Barking Spiders

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Barking Spiders' timestamp='1501060353' post='3342085']
The 'less is more ' attitude is similar to when ugly to average looking people say ' looks aren't important it's personality that counts'. I'm all for players of all types of instrument holding back when they need to but not for a whole song. At some point I wanna hear them let rip and show what they're made of. I like to see virtuosity pumped up to the max and make a point of learning from DVDs and You Tube clips from the best in the business. I want to learn bass techniques from Vic Wootten or Billy Sheehan not some bloke in a crappy indie band
[/quote]

If Wooten or Sheehan were in a crappy indie band, they'd just play the same boring basslines, because that's what fits, so I guess what you mean is that you don't like crappy indie and you assume any bassist playing in a crappy indie band can't do anything more technically proficient than what they show in their crappy indie band

...or do you think Wooten would improve the crappy indie band with a bunch of ridiculous slapping?

[Mastodon2]

Everyone's idea of "enough for the song" is different and it depends on what you're into. I like complex and challenging music, so I like bass playing to fit - but I do prefer to hear nice complimentary note choices and phrasing resolutions; someone like Janek Gwizdala is ideal to me because he "plays for the song", but given that is in jazz, this phrase has quite a different meaning to what it would mean for an indie band bassist.

Sometimes I like to listen to the flash and speed of Billy Sheehan - even if he is mostly just playing fast pentatonic rock runs, or Jeff Berlin's perfectly executed playing, where he is improvising strong diatonic phrases and deftly weaving in chromatic passages. Sometimes I just want to watch that amazing video of Sharay Reed playing "Joy to the World", and other times I want to hear Ryan Martinie playing those complex lines with his signature aggressive style.

I like to be impressed by both the playing and musical content of whatever I listen to. I don't listen to music in the background while doing something else, I don't like to it while driving. If I'm listening to music, I'm sitting down with some good headphones on and really getting into it, trying to transcribe it in my head and understand how all the parts fit together with the whole composition and trying to understand what makes a song so good, that's where I get my enjoyment from it. I understand this puts me a in a minority, even within musicians as a group. At the other end of the spectrum, for a lot of people all they want to hear is 1/4 and 8th note picked roots and 5th on a P bass, and there's nothing wrong with that either, it just does nothing for me. Different strokes!

[stingrayPete1977]

I'd hate to restrict myself to only listening to music with a technical and challenging bass line.

[Mastodon2]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1501068364' post='3342186']
I'd hate to restrict myself to only listening to music with a technical and challenging bass line.
[/quote]

No one is asking you to, so no need to worry.

[Steve Browning]

I guess there a few here who wouldn't have wanted to stand next to Peter Green and play Albatross.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Mastodon2' timestamp='1501071625' post='3342231']


No one is asking you to, so no need to worry.
[/quote]

Phew

[chris_b]

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1501072040' post='3342242']
I guess there a few here who wouldn't have wanted to stand next to Peter Green and play Albatross.
[/quote]

. . .. or ZZ Top, Status Quo and U2.

I'm still waiting for their call!!

[ivansc]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1500976078' post='3341376']
My experience (over decades...) of drummers on the Continent would echo the above ^^; I've very rarely seen any of 'em 'playing for themselves', at pro or semi-pro level, at concerts or festivals. Most (not all, but the vast majority...) are playing to the needs of the music, in whatever style, form trip-hop break-beat through to hard metal and all points west. From the many US bands I've watched, I've not noticed any major difference in attitude; I wouldn't know of the more local US talent that don't tour Europe, though.
[/quote]

OK I will confess I was being deliberately all-inclusive, as my experience in France is pretty much the same as yours. Just didnt want to single out UK players only!
I assume your experience on the continent is also that there are far more players who have been formally educated in music than in the UK?
Embarrassing but sadly all too true. Even the graduates of places like BIT GIT DIT KIT etc are still being indoctrinated with the Olympic Games of Music ethos still. Happily quite a few of the graduates in MY local area do seem to manage to transcend all that sweep picking and become decent musicians.
I am going to shut up now before I start a fight. Sorry if my attitude offends anyone on here, just saying what my personal experience has been.

[ead]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1500931651' post='3341210']
Just we've forgotten by this point, this Kat from other animals in action, just to see if she knows what she's on about.

[url="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-vhUslWzxkc"]https://m.youtube.co...h?v=-vhUslWzxkc[/url]
[/quote]

Really like this. Found an MP3 download of the song on Amazon but nothing else?

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1501072040' post='3342242']
I guess there a few here who wouldn't have wanted to stand next to Peter Green and play Albatross.
[/quote]

If it was in the set yes, but I would be waiting for the next track.

[TimR]

Funily enough they're talking about Brand X in the other thread.

Phil Collins is an awesome drummer, but listen to him playing on any 80s/90s Genesis and you'd be hard pushed to put him in the top 100 drummers, let alone top 10.

Listen to some 70s Genisis and then listen to some Brand X and it'll change your mind.

80s/90s Genises - less is more.
70s Genisis - very tasteful licks where required.
Brand X - amazing technical playing, very busy, lots of overplaying, a noise unless you love Jazz Fusion. Which is a somewhat acquired taste.

Same man.

Edited July 26, 2017 by TimR

[bazzbass]

love to see Kat join a Rush tribute band and run that line by them.......