bigjimmyc Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Hi. Looking for a little advice. I knew I'd regret deciding to sell my guitar on eBay. Having seen it go for £171 plus £20 shipping, I packed it up in the hard case where it's spent virtually it's whole life, then packaged that and sent it. Unfortunately the buyer sent me a photo just now of the poor thing. Neck snapped at the headstock. I feel pretty sick. I imagine this happens a bit, couriers not having a great reputation. I think the maximum insurance value is only £100 though. What do I do now? Does he keep it to repair, do I refund him, what if I don't get the £100, what about eBay??? All advice gratefully received. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 firstly, sorry that happened, secondly, selling a Les Paul for £171? Really? Thirdly, check musical instruments are even covered in the small print. If so I would imagine he returns it, then you refund him, then claim back the £100 if possible and get it repaired. Good Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) That's a tough break (no pun intended... ). If it was broken by the transporter, claim from them; if you only get £100, it's still worthwhile. The typical headstock snap of a Les Paul (and a few other Gibsons...) is an easy fix for a decent luthier. It shouldn't cost much, and will be stronger than the original wood. If the buyer is happy to do that, I'd use the courier money to pay for a repair; if not, get it back, get it fixed and sell it again. Stuff happens, and it's not good, but that's part of the risks in life, I suppose. Hope this helps. Edited July 27, 2017 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjimmyc Posted July 27, 2017 Author Share Posted July 27, 2017 Thanks both. It is an Epiphone and a lefty so I was ok with that price. Not sure that shipping it back to repair and resell will add up though. Although I charged £20 it cost me £27 plus packaging to ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raymondo Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Where was it shipped to? maybe one of us could collect it? worth a try..... .If it's near me I'd be happy to help though getting it down to you might end up being a whole new "Bass Relay" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planer Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 [quote name='Raymondo' timestamp='1501163897' post='3342982'] If it's near me I'd be happy to help though getting it down to you[/quote] Likewise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawelG Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 The case wasn't properly fitted and yes, it does happen a lot. Have you loosened the strings? That can help sometimes... Anyway, I don't know how to help - the only thing I can think of is letting you know about a luthier in Poland (my uncle uses him to fix his vintage Gibsons) and he is amazing. I don't know how much exactly a fix like that costs in the UK, but it would save you a lot of money if you want to ship it to Poland (seeing that you're in Hampshire), get it done and ship it back. And you won't be able to tell that it was broken unless you really look for it. PM me if you think that is something you would like to do. I ship guitars/amps over pretty much every week. Once again, sorry about what happened. Good thing it wasn't 2 grand guitar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twincam Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Why didn't you have proper insurance? I go out my way when sending things to know that if something goes wrong I'm definitely covered. And I charge the extra postage costs. Its the couriers fault as it must of taken a serious whack to that while in a case. Unless the case was unsuitable and you didn't use extra bubble wrap. Which even with a fitted case is a good idea. Often bubble wrap the outer case too at both ends. He sends back the instrument, with proof he has done so. Then you refund him and the extra postage costs back to you. You make a claim for the 100 pound from courier. Then if its a set neck you get it repaired and or sell as is to try recoup some of your lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmjos Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 The law is quite explicit. The goods don't cease to be your responsibility until they arrive safely. Insurance helps - bomb proof packing is better. I also photograph my packing and the final box to prove that it was protected to the point the the courier would have had to have failed in the fundamental execution of their job and allowed the package to be subject to abuse. Then you can sue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 i had to threaten legal action recently and they caved in. Tried all sorts of rubbish defences like "media packaging not covered" when describing their magnificent destruction of the printed cardboard surrounding a toy, to "poor outer packaging" when they havent even seen it. (it was packed in a box strong enough to protect network servers). When I said I'd take them to [b]my [/b]local court (citing free legal work on my side as I'm a law grad) and they'd need to pay a solicitor to attend, they settled. threaten legal action and be prepared to do it. Its not difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binky_bass Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 Www.ceoemail.com Find the CEO's email address and go direct, literally always helps get your issue tended to. If you're really wanting to get noticed google their board of directors and use the same email formula as the CEO (usually [email protected]) and send your complaint to everyone once a day. Works a treat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 [quote name='pmjos' timestamp='1501246276' post='3343576'] The law is quite explicit. The goods don't cease to be your responsibility until they arrive safely. [/quote] Not strictly accurate. If the transaction is between two private individuals then it depends on what was explicitly agreed in the terms of the sale, but in the absence of any express agreement it is arguable that risk passes with payment. If the sale is by a business to a consumer, then you are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1501489291' post='3344900'] Not strictly accurate. If the transaction is between two private individuals then it depends on what was explicitly agreed in the terms of the sale, but in the absence of any express agreement it is arguable that risk passes with payment. If the sale is by a business to a consumer, then you are correct. [/quote] I suggest that its [i]rare[/i] for private individuals to have that explicit debate.Where there is no explicit agreement then you have to imagine that implicit expectation takes over. Common sense says that if I have paid for an intact instrument as shown in a picture than that is what must be delivered into my hands (by whatever means). I think its common ground though, that where a courier is engaged to transport, they are essentially an agent and that their mistake is the seller's mistake in the buyer's eyes. Looking at it with with practical justice in mind, the seller can easily seek redress from the courier by a known procedure [i]and[/i] he may be insured for it, whereas the buyer has no redress except direct legal action against the seller since he is not privy to the transportation contract. Such legal action would be an expensive foregone conclusion as the judge would probably say "he paid but didn't get, why should he be cheated through no fault of his own? ". I therefore disagree that risk passes with payment [b]except[/b] where the buyer collects in person. If he/she stumbles in the doorway after paying and snaps the neck off, that's his fault; the seller did what was expected. If Hermes or another stumble on the way to his door and do the same then it has still not been delivered intact. I totally agree that the rules for business -> individual are different,both legally [b]and[/b] practically because the courier and the business have more to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 That does sound intuitively correct, but at the risk of diverting the thread slightly, it's wrong The relevant sections of the law are ss16 - 20 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979. Essentially s18 sets out the rules to ascertain when property (i.e. ownership) in goods is intended to pass. Rule 1 states that property passes when the contract is made. S20 states unless otherwise agreed, the risk remains the seller's until property i.e. ownership is transferred to the buyer irrespective of whether or not delivery has been made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 Yes I know - but the question is surely when "ownership is transferred" and the law is necessarily silent on how each type of good is transferred - houses are different to fridges. the buyer should get what they wanted to buy, in the stated condition, they can't know different until it arrives with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 I think we're slightly talking at cross purposes - but in the sections I quoted, "ownership" is transferred when the contract is made, which would be when the funds are transferred in the absence of anything agreed to the contrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ribbetingfrog Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 Ebay sale, ebay rules cover it so agreement is made on that basis that the seller is responsible for item until safe arrival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1501498141' post='3344984'] I think we're slightly talking at cross purposes - but in the sections I quoted, "ownership" is transferred when the contract is made, which would be when the funds are transferred in the absence of anything agreed to the contrary. [/quote] sure I understood that, but aren't we then left in the invidious position that the moment Ebay notify me that a buyer has paid, its immediately their stuff [u][b]and[/b][/u] thus their risk even though its still in my possession ? The understanding I have from my LLB is that risk passes when the parties intended it to pass (or must have intended) in the absence of any concrete evidence (exception when the seller uses a different delivery method at the request of the buyer) and that for most reasonable people would be when the item arrives safely at the specified address. Edited July 31, 2017 by Geek99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) No, because the transaction is conducted in accordance with the agreement between the parties on eBay's terms which therefore constitute express terms between the parties. Anyway, all I wanted to point out was a buyer shouldn't automatically assume it's at the seller's risk until delivered. Edited July 31, 2017 by Jakester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjimmyc Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 Update.... I agreed a partial refund with the buyer and he kept the guitar for spares/repair. Probably a better deal for him considering the hard case. I felt ok about that but two weeks later I still don't have a refund from the courier (parcel2go). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) tell them you'll see them in[b] your local[/b] small claims court. Hampshire is quite a step from their northern (burnley?) base and they'll have to pay a local solicitor to attend. It will be very expensive for them, win or lose. Edited August 21, 2017 by Geek99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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