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Pub 'reluctant' to pay


dazza14
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We get contracts if the gig is booked through an agent, but never if I book the gigs myself (obviously no one else in the band would ever dream of arranging anything!). Personally, I am in favour of doing more gigs though agents, as it does give us protection and there is a layer between us and the business side, which I prefer.

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I have to share one early experience. We played a rough local pub, we were brilliant (for us anyway) in the first set but something went in the second set but by then the punters were well watered and we went down a storm. At the end of the set the landlord disappeared, he's apparently 'gone to bed' according to the bouncers protecting the stairwell. They then had a conversation, decide we were well worth the money, charged up the stairs, frogmarched the landlord down and stood over him whilst he counted out what was owed!

Only in the West Country :)

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[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1501874388' post='3348026']
I have to share one early experience. We played a rough local pub, we were brilliant (for us anyway) in the first set but something went in the second set but by then the punters were well watered and we went down a storm. At the end of the set the landlord disappeared, he's apparently 'gone to bed' according to the bouncers protecting the stairwell. They then had a conversation, decide we were well worth the money, charged up the stairs, frogmarched the landlord down and stood over him whilst he counted out what was owed!

Only in the West Country :)
[/quote]

Now that's a nice story. Like it. :D

Dave

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Ive had such similar experiences. We did a good few gigs for the Hungry Horse chain, Good payers and majority were spot on. There is one near Perry Barr in Birmingham,which we had played before. So on return visit, we were met by a new very aggressive manager. I put it down to her establishing her authority. Fine, play the game blah blah. Set up, played, people danced, people fought and people cried. A success all round. Pay time and all the excuses in the world. " we didn't book it" etc. Our guitarist is quiet an accomplished thug and at the point he began to remove a flat screen TV, they payed up.

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1501869422' post='3347968']


Not uncommon and IMO not completely unfair.

There was no business and the landlady made a business decision. I've heard about this happening with my local peer bands.

[/quote]

Really, Blue? Do you run a bar on the side? So if the staff turn up and the place isn't busy, do you consider it acceptable for them to be sent home unpaid or short paid? Perhaps your views are due to the fact that you're from the States, where the corporate will is king and companies can treat staff like dirt.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1501925897' post='3348235']
Running a pub tends to attract a certain element of society, basically the ones with no home or qualifications so it fills both criteria until they realise it is not the same as 'going to the pub' that they have been so good at previously! :D
[/quote]

Amen to that.

Edited by Dan Dare
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Still puzzled at the number of people who say we should all join the MU and start insisting on signed contracts before we play.

I can only imagine that you guys play in more rarified levels of venue where you wouldn't get laughed out of the pub if you tried that line when fishing for gigs.

I'm now also playing in a band on the club circuit and that's different, for sure, but pubs? Yer avin a giraffe mate.

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[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1501927597' post='3348257']
Still puzzled at the number of people who say we should all join the MU and start insisting on signed contracts before we play.

I can only imagine that you guys play in more rarified levels of venue where you wouldn't get laughed out of the pub if you tried that line when fishing for gigs.

I'm now also playing in a band on the club circuit and that's different, for sure, but pubs? Yer avin a giraffe mate.
[/quote]

Or, putting the shoe on the other foot, if more bands protected their investments, their hard work then venues would understand that this should be normal process and common place.

They are happy to take details for tax and accounting purposes and insist on PAT testing and insurance, but bands are expected to accept that they don't have a leg to stand on when the venue changes their mind?

Yer avin a giraffe mate :) :) :)

I mean, everyone moans about another venue closing but maybe what is needed is a more resilient and trustworthy model to work with. Bands are services to the venue and services need paying for.

But ya know, if bands are happy for pubs to laugh them out the door, then it's no wonder that these problems (OP) exist.

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[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1501874173' post='3348022']
We get contracts if the gig is booked through an agent, but never if I book the gigs myself (obviously no one else in the band would ever dream of arranging anything!). Personally, I am in favour of doing more gigs though agents, as it does give us protection and there is a layer between us and the business side, which I prefer.
[/quote]

Dave

The lliken the use of a contract at a bar to finding a clean bathroom in one.😁

Blue

Edited by blue
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[quote name='dood' timestamp='1501945401' post='3348399']
Or, putting the shoe on the other foot, if more bands protected their investments, their hard work then venues would understand that this should be normal process and common place.

They are happy to take details for tax and accounting purposes and insist on PAT testing and insurance, but bands are expected to accept that they don't have a leg to stand on when the venue changes their mind?

Yer avin a giraffe mate :) :) :)

I mean, everyone moans about another venue closing but maybe what is needed is a more resilient and trustworthy model to work with. Bands are services to the venue and services need paying for.

But ya know, if bands are happy for pubs to laugh them out the door, then it's no wonder that these problems (OP) exist.
[/quote]

Fair enough, Dood, but an obvious question for you - how many pub gigs a year do you (personally) go out and find & negotiate?

I do this a lot, but I'm always happy to learn.

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[quote name='blue' timestamp='1501946307' post='3348408']
Dave

The lliken the use of a contract at a bar to finding a clean bathroom in one.

Blue
[/quote]

I'm playing a town centre pub tonight, and have a contract. Not sure about the bathroom there though!

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[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1501947279' post='3348424']


Fair enough, Dood, but an obvious question for you - how many pub gigs a year do you (personally) go out and find & negotiate?

I do this a lot, but I'm always happy to learn.
[/quote]

Amongst other stuff I 'do', I play in a busy function band too and we do play pub/small venue gigs along side large venue and private bookings. Each of us as band members are expected to go and seek, negotiate and book gigs. To be honest, negotiation has never been a problem, as a self-employed pro musician it's kinda necessary all the time, the same as a plumber or electrician seeks work.

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[quote name='dazza14' timestamp='1501842282' post='3347701']
Had a gig last night at a pub we've played a few times in the past but is now under new management (the gig was booked through the previous landlady but management informed us they would honour the bookings) and when we'd finished our playing I, and our singer, approached the bar staff and asked to see the manageress about being paid and it went downhill from there.
We were left standing for about five minutes before I reminded the barman what we were waiting for, he told us to go to the other end of the bar where the manageress was standing, so off we trotted.
She asked us "who was it that booked you?" (knowing full well it was the previous landlady)
Then "well the booking wasn't made through me... I don't really know much about it..." - more head scratching and delaying.
We played along, showed sympathy, but in our minds thinking 'just f***ing pay us'!
She then told us our booking wasn't in the diary, as she did this she thumbed through said diary only to land on last nights date and there we were, in black and white, listed as entertainment.
So back to the 'I didn't book you' line of denial.
I then said that we had been booked last December, had contacted the pub three weeks earlier, had delivered posters, had contacted the pub to discuss fee - I always do this via text or email to have a record for this eventuality - and if she was unsure who had booked us or who was paying for us why had she not asked us when we arrived three hours earlier?
At this her partner/boyfriend/husband came up (a big fella standing a good 6ft 5" and probably 19st in weight) and asked her when the lady who booked us was coming in.
By this point I was ready to pick up a bar stool and introduce it to the optics and glasses in the bar, and if the police came, so be it.
So more head scratching, heavy sighing by our singer, dirty looks between me and the boyfriend, and then suddenly she resolved that she was going to pay the fee.
The whole conversation took 30mins from the moment we approached the bar.

I've since learnt that last night's manageress (and her co-manageress) left last night, it was their last night before a new landlord takes over today.
I wonder if our fee was her intended 'goldne handshake'...?

Needless to say we won't be playing there again, unless we get the fee upfront.
[/quote]

Rob dog b4stards. They'll have another tenancy already I bet. "Co-manageress" Hahahahahaha! Nineteen stone hits the ground hard when you knock it over.

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[quote name='dazza14' timestamp='1501848644' post='3347750']
I don't want to name and shame a pub who is now being run by, hopefully, a better landlord.
The pub has a bad reputation as it is without me adding to it.
[/quote]

Good man.

It is clear that the management at the time in question was just passing through. It would be pointless naming the individuals and in law it would be questionable if you ever needed to defend a case down the line. These sort are everywhere. You did the right thing by standing your ground and no more.

I think tied pubs are where this happens most. They are usually under a tenancy agreement and the management are looking to move onwards and upwards within the brewer's inner circle. Sometimes they're not bothered who they rip off in the process. I'd be surprised if anyone who owns their pub outright would risk their reputation by stooping so low.

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"Then "well the booking wasn't made through me... I don't really know much about it...""

How can you not know much about it,
1, you watched us carry gear in..... :crigon_04:
2, you could of come over at any time and asked
3, you watched us set up.......................
4, you could of come over at any time and asked
5, you watched us sound check............. :i-m_so_happy:
6, you could of come over at any time and asked
7, you watched us play a first set.......... :sun_bespectacled:
8, you watched us come off ....................
9, you could of come over at any time and asked
10, you watched us play a second set,........ :party:
11, you watched us come off....................... :thank_you:
12, you could of come over at any time and asked
13, you watched us pack away..................... :drinks:
14, you could of come over at any time and asked

Whats there not to know ?............................
do you normally just let people walk into your pub and do that ? :Milwaukee:

a band has just played, in all that time you did not think once to check ?, at least the book ?

Cash or Trash ?
joking aside
at least you stuck to it and got paid, a happy ending to the story.

Just a quick thought, if taking a booking when its writen in their book make sure you tell them to also write the agreed fee in too, job done.

Edited by funkgod
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I am sure there are websites that indulge the notion of a witch hunt. As far as I know Basschat is not one of them. I'd leave if it became one. Anyone who does something as poorly considered as the knee jerk name and shame thing would put our forum in jeopardy.

'Happy Jack'
Name & shame?

'The59Sound'
Name & shame otherwise a pointless thread.

'dazza14' - The OP
I don't want to name and shame a pub who is now being run by, hopefully, a better landlord.
The pub has a bad reputation as it is without me adding to it.

'The59Sound'
I look forward to playing the same venue then and being out of pocket.

'steve-bbb'
its not the brewerys fault ... name and shame the pair of them to hopefully spare others the inconvenience of getting had over by them in future

'The59Sound'
Yet the pub name isn't being bought up still.





[u]Note[/u]: The site parser thinks I broke the mark-up language text. I didn't but I think that spanning two pages with the multi-quote button might have upset the system.

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Amazing what people try to get away with. Years back I used to book the band's for a pub I worked in. Booked a threepiece one night but I wasn't on shift. Two of the guys couldn't play but the main man was a very highly regarded solo act so he took on the gig solo and did fantastic, brought his following too. Bharat manager for the night cut the fee from a hundred quid to thirty because "a hundred for three people, just one guy is thirty". I didn't enjoy handling the phone calls on that one!!
Last month played a party for a guy who tried to knock fifty quid off the agreed fee because we were getting "exposure". Exposure for a long established band by playing a private party in an area where 80% of our bookings are... A private party where half the guests were from another country... Unbelievable.
Some written log of what was agreed is essential, whether a formal contract or not.

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May I just step in and correct what appears to be an implicit misconception? If you have agreed to play a pub for a fee at an agreed time, you [b]do[/b] have a legally binding and therefore enforcible agreement.

If you have a written contract, then that's even better, but just because the terms are not written down doesn't mean they aren't legally binding.

Edited by Jakester
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