F****r AE Precision build - Final PICS added!

[honza992]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1507539864' post='3386073']
I hope I haven't misled you into thinking that the links I provided are for helicoils. They aren't. They are for solid inserts. The link you posted is suitable for wood as well.

This link shows the helicoil a bit better;
[url="http://www.toolsinstock.com/search?q=helicoil+birmingham"]http://www.toolsinst...coil+birmingham[/url]

I shouldn't have mentioned them in retrospect as they really only work for metal parts. It was the question of how they are driven into the parent component that made me think of them. If you look closely at the third photo down you can see where there is a notch in the wire insert to allow the tang to be broken off.
[/quote]

All understood. The inserts I use are like the ones you linked to.

I still like the helicoils for their elegance! There's a video on their site which shows how they work - very cool.

[honza992]

I'm still doing experiments with finishing. It's made more complicated by the fact that the fretboard is primarily brown, and it really doesn't go well with anything amber.

For the top I'm therefore going to use the Osmo Raw that Andy used on Psilos, probably coupled with a brown stain and sand-back to emphasise the flame.

The back is causing more problems. It's a pretty pale mahogany that I would like to darken to increase the contrast with the top. Like with the top, anything amber (or red) just doesn't go with the fretboard....


So I'm thinking something like this:
1. Sand
2. Dye black
3. Sand back so black dye only remains in the grain
4. Dye brown
5. Osmo Satin

Does that make sense? Or am I better to use a black grain filler rather than black dye in step 2? I'm happy not to grain fill from a feel point of view, but I do want the mahogany to be a bit more interesting. Just Osmo leaves it a pretty uninspiring slightly murky brown/amber.

Cheers all.

Edited October 9, 2017 by honza992

[honza992]

Ok, I think my brain has melted. The little one has Foot n' Mouth (no doubt from kissing sheep or something) so sleep has been hard to come by.

I'm trying to position the bridge so that the strings intonate correctly with the side dots. Rather than guesstimate this time I thought I'd do it more precisely so I made another of my attractive jigs. And here it is....


The strings are held by a secondary bridge and tuned to pitch as usual using a clip-on tuner. The plan was that I can move the bridge up and down until everything intonates correctly, then I can mark the position and drill the holes through the body for the strings. That was the theory, and I've seen other people do it this way on that there t'interweb.

The trouble is if I tune the strings to the correct pitch then shift the bridge slightly towards the secondary bridge, ie making the string longer, the pitch goes up rather than down! What the ?!?!?!
For example, if I tune open E correctly then play E at the 12th but find it's a bit sharp, if I move the bridge a few mm to effectively make the string a bit longer the pitch goes up. Which was not what I was expecting.

I'm assuming the reason is because as I move the wooden bridge towards the secondary bridge the vibrating length gets longer (which would lower the pitch) but the tension goes up. But either I'm too stupid or too tired (or both) to work out why.

Does anyone have any ideas what I am doing wrong? Is this jig ever going to do what I want it to do?


Edit: I think I've made it sound a bit complicated. I play an E string. I tune it. I then move the wooden bridge away from the nut, making the string longer, and the pitch goes up, not down.....

Edited October 19, 2017 by honza992

[fftc]

Increasing string tension due to the relative positions of the two bridges?

Have you tried re-tuning after each move?

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1508447991' post='3392353']
Increasing string tension due to the relative positions of the two bridges?

Have you tried re-tuning after each move?
[/quote]
^ this. As fftc says, move the bridge, retune to pitch, then check the 12th harmonic against the 12th fretted. Excactly the same thing happens on a conventional bridge when you adjust the intonation....

[Andyjr1515]

It looks absolutely fantastic, by the way

[honza992]

[quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1508456331' post='3392393']
^ this. As fftc says, move the bridge, retune to pitch, then check the 12th harmonic against the 12th fretted. Excactly the same thing happens on a conventional bridge when you adjust the intonation....
[/quote]

Thanks fftc & Andy.

Well blow me down. As Andy says, the same thing does happen with a conventional bridge. If you play an open E then adjust the saddle so the string gets longer the pitch (of the open E) actually goes up, not down! Weird How could I never have noticed this before.....I think it must be because before moving the saddle I would de-tune, move the saddle, then re-tune, so I never actually noticed what the effect was of moving the saddle.

I'm still a bit unsure as to exactly why.

And does the fact that I'm using a secondary bridge to hold the strings mean that they act differently (and will intonate differently) when the strings go through the body? Or is it completely irrelevent what happends to the string once it's gone over the saddle?

[fftc]

On a conventional bridge the string breaks over the saddle and goes down to the anchor point. If you move the saddle back then you increase the break angle and the string tension. The relationship between the anchor point and the saddle will determine whether the increase in string length (lower pitch) will overcome the increase in tension (higher pitch).

There is a lot of discussion between guitar owners (Les Pauls specifically) about break angle and how to set your stop tailpiece for the best feeling. The theory is that a lesser break angle will feel 'slinkier' than a higher break angle. This is while tuned to pitch, so the tension is the same. Apparently there is proper physics to explain this but I can't remember it or understand it!

Intonation should be limited to strictly what happens between the nut and the saddle, so your secondary bridge shouldn't affect that adjustment, even if it would affect string feel.

[honza992]

I did a few more adjustments today, including shaving down the height of both the saddle and the bridge so that with a small amount of relief in the neck I have a string height at the 12th of approx 2.5mm on the E and just under 2mm on the G. Does that sound about right? It's higher than my fretted bass (which I have very very low) but I'm thinking with fretless its better to have a bit more space.

The bass is a 33" scale, Re-doing the intonation has meant that I have ended up with quite a lot of compensation - 8mm on the E and 6mm on the G. Maybe that's not so much given it's a slightly shorter scale - my 34" P bass with a very low action has something like 5mm on the E.

TIme to stop muckin around Honza, just drill the goddam holes!

[honza992]

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1508529783' post='3392856']
On a conventional bridge the string breaks over the saddle and goes down to the anchor point. If you move the saddle back then you increase the break angle and the string tension. The relationship between the anchor point and the saddle will determine whether the increase in string length (lower pitch) will overcome the increase in tension (higher pitch).

There is a lot of discussion between guitar owners (Les Pauls specifically) about break angle and how to set your stop tailpiece for the best feeling. The theory is that a lesser break angle will feel 'slinkier' than a higher break angle. This is while tuned to pitch, so the tension is the same. Apparently there is proper physics to explain this but I can't remember it or understand it!

Intonation should be limited to strictly what happens between the nut and the saddle, so your secondary bridge shouldn't affect that adjustment, even if it would affect string feel.
[/quote]

Great, thanks fftc. I feel warmly reassured.

[honza992]

Doubt has set in again Sorry, but are these two statements not contradictory?

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1508529783' post='3392856']
If you move the saddle back then you increase the break angle and the string tension. The relationship between the anchor point and the saddle will determine whether the increase in string length (lower pitch) will overcome the increase in tension (higher pitch).
[/quote]

I feel as though what you're saying here is that break angle affects intonation. Clearly as I move from the secondary bridge in the jig to through-the-body stringing, the break angle will be significantly increased.

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1508529783' post='3392856']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Intonation should be limited to strictly what happens between the nut and the saddle[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

But here you seem to be saying that break angle doesn't affect intonation.

Not tryng to be rude, honest! Im just trying to get my tiny brain to understand what for most people is no doubt obvious.....

Edited October 20, 2017 by honza992

[fftc]

[quote name='honza992' timestamp='1508530796' post='3392865']
Doubt has set in again Sorry, but are these two statements not contradictory?


Not tryng to be rude, honest! Im just trying to get my tiny brain to understand what for most people is no doubt obvious.....
[/quote]

I'm probably not wording it very well. It would be easier to explain face to face with a whiteboard!

The important bit of the string for tuning and intonation is the bit between the saddle and the nut (assuming they are both doing their job). What happens on the other side of these two fixed points can have an effect on feel, but not how the string resonates. Where the string resonates is where you get your harmonics and it is the half wavelength that you are trying to line up with the 12th fret. That depends on the length of string between the nut and saddle.

Not sure if that has helped!

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='honza992' timestamp='1508526731' post='3392825']
Thanks fftc & Andy.

Well blow me down. As Andy says, the same thing does happen with a conventional bridge. If you play an open E then adjust the saddle so the string gets longer the pitch (of the open E) actually goes up, not down! Weird How could I never have noticed this before.....I think it must be because before moving the saddle I would de-tune, move the saddle, then re-tune, so I never actually noticed what the effect was of moving the saddle.

I'm still a bit unsure as to exactly why.

And does the fact that I'm using a secondary bridge to hold the strings mean that they act differently (and will intonate differently) when the strings go through the body? Or is it completely irrelevent what happends to the string once it's gone over the saddle?
[/quote]

Calm down, calm down. I understand your frustration.

I was puzzled by this too. It is of no relevance to what you are doing and if you overthink it like I did once, you may be at risk of a minor stroke. The reason you noticed it from what you've said is that, in this instance, you did not slacken the string before moving the saddle.

In my humble bumblings I say that is better practice to detune until the tension is enough to retain the string but not enough to cause much static friction between saddle and string. Static friction being greater than dynamic friction, you will find fine adjustment to the saddle is facilitated when you reduce the tension of the string because you wont get that sudden release and overshoot when the bridge starts to move. Without going into Applied Mathematics, that's as simple as I can put it.

On standard bridges, if you keep the string at tuning tension, there is the additional risk of bending the longer grub screws in the saddles or damaging the finish beneath the screws as they are dragged by the string length adjustment. For those reasons it would be counter-intuitive to keep string tension on standard bridges during fine adjustment. Of course, on a standard bridge you also have string height to consider every time you change the string length. Have you any provision for that on yours or are you aiming to file the boney bit (saddle-nut?) to a final height for your chosen strings?

The unexpected phenomenon that you're describing is worthy of a topic all of its own... if anyone wants to take the job? Maybe a BC masterclass on bridge and saddle placement has been done already. When we have the migration behind us the forum search engine might throw up some improved results from our older topics.

Edited October 21, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[honza992]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1508570592' post='3392967']
Calm down, calm down. I understand your frustration.

I was puzzled by this too. It is of no relevance to what you are doing and if you overthink it like I did once, you may be at risk of a minor stroke. The reason you noticed it from what you've said is that, in this instance, you did not slacken the string before moving the saddle.

In my humble bumblings I say that is better practice to detune until the tension is enough to retain the string but not enough to cause much static friction between saddle and string. Static friction being greater than dynamic friction, you will find fine adjustment to the saddle is facilitated when you reduce the tension of the string because you wont get that sudden release and overshoot when the bridge starts to move. Without going into Applied Mathematics, that's as simple as I can put it.

On standard bridges, if you keep the string at tuning tension, there is the additional risk of bending the longer grub screws in the saddles or damaging the finish beneath the screws as they are dragged by the string length adjustment. For those reasons it would be counter-intuitive to keep string tension on standard bridges during fine adjustment. Of course, on a standard bridge you also have string height to consider every time you change the string length. Have you any provision for that on yours or are you aiming to file the boney bit (saddle-nut?) to a final height for your chosen strings?

The unexpected phenomenon that you're describing is worthy of a topic all of its own... if anyone wants to take the job? Maybe a BC masterclass on bridge and saddle placement has been done already. When we have the migration behind us the forum search engine might throw up some improved results from our older topics.
[/quote]

Minor stroke indeed!

But, it's done and the holes are drilled. I've over-sized them to give a few mm in either direction of travel in case I want to change string height in the future. I think the final intonation figures ended up being something like +6mm for the D string and +9mm for the E string. It's a bit more than I imagined, maybe because of the shorter scale

For string height, adjustments are a question of either sanding down the bone saddle (from the bottom using sandpaper on a flat surface) or sanding down the bottom of the bridge itself. Raising the action....I guess options would range from adding a shim to the bottom of the saddle, making a new saddle, adding a shim to the neck pocket, routing the neck pocket slightly deeper....let's cross that bridge when hopefully I don't come to it....

A quick question. When the bone saddle arrived it was a beautiful white colour, presumably from bleaching. As I've sanded it it's turned into a cream colour that actually matches the binding pretty well. However, it's also got brown/grey staining on it, which I guess is the natural colour of the bone.

Does anyone have any experiencing of bleaching bone? Ideally I'd like to keep it cream colour but without the brown staining. If I decide to bleach it any idea how to do it? Bucket, bleach, meet bone? Is there more to it?

Cheers all.

[honza992]

I need to drill holes for the knobs and the jack and then very very final sanding and we're done!

Finish will be Osmo Raw on the top and standard Osmo on the mahogany. The neck will be sprayed with General Finishes HP Satin, and kept very thin.

Now that sounds easy doesn't it

Dear Gods of Finishing, please look kindly on me, your faithful servant.....

[SpondonBassed]

I have every confidence in you.

It's of no help to you to say it but I keep thinking of how bones bleach in string sunlight. I have a twisted sensibility sometimes.

Shimming or reworking the neck pocket are on the cards for my kit build. The as-supplied machining could do with a tweak even though I now use it exclusively for practising.

Edited October 24, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[honza992]

I don't know if any of you are interested in those six string toy things (ok, I know you are!), but I've started my next build thread here:
http://www.tdpri.com/threads/shifted-bridge-short-scale-tele.776185/

It's a Tele, so I sort of thougt that was the obvious place for it!

[Si600]

They hated your suggestion of building a non-standard Tele didn't they

[honza992]

[quote name='Si600' timestamp='1508927371' post='3395360']
They hated your suggestion of building a non-standard Tele didn't they
[/quote]

He he they were certainly none too keen!

It's strange, were I on here or Talkbass and talking about making modifications to the P bass design no one would think anything of it. I thought I would get two replies each telling me I can do whatever I like. Instead of which it was 10 pages of.....well anyway, it was an experience.

[honza992]

OK the body is sanded to 400 so time for some fini...

No, bugger. I forgot about shielding the cavity. Best do it now cos I'll only drop the brush onto the top or something . I haven't used this paint before, but it needs 3 coats with 24hrs in between. What? 3 days!?! It's only a guitar, not a lightening rod.....nevermind, in the meantime I can finish sanding the neck (or start on the tele! )

[honza992]

Man this thread has slowed to a snail's pace....first Foot & Mouth, then flu, then this, then that....aghhhh very frustrating.

Anyway, I'm ready to start finishing. I've sanded the mahogany body till I can sand no more. This is what it looks like:

The observant of you will notice the light coloured flecks of the grain. My question is whether this is sanding dust which needs to be blown out, or whether it's just the grain pattern. I've vacuumed it with the shop vac but I don't have a compressor to try blowing it out (if indeed there is anything to blow out). A guy in one of the next door workshops has got a big old compressor but isn't here for a few days.

What do think? Is it dust (and I should be less impatient and wait for Mr Compressor's return) or am I being paranoid, just get some oil on there Honza.....

Edited November 3, 2017 by honza992

[Owen]

I sanded a Black Walnut body to within an inch of it's life. I could not shift the very finest dust in the grain. One coat of oil made everything disappear.

Edited November 4, 2017 by owen

[SpondonBassed]

Good to see you back up on this project Honza.

Have you tried wetting it?

[Norris]

A micro fibre cloth is good at removing dust. My local supermarket sells packs of about 5 in different colours for a couple of quid

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1509957756' post='3402785']
A micro fibre cloth is good at removing dust. My local supermarket sells packs of about 5 in different colours for a couple of quid
[/quote]

Have you tried a tack cloth? You can buy multi-packs of them for under a tenner. Less sticky than a Post-it[sup][size=1](TM)[/size][/sup] yet sticky 'nuff for dust. Paint sprayers use them. Maybe Post-its would work too?

Edited November 7, 2017 by SpondonBassed