F****r AE Precision build - Final PICS added!

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='honza992' timestamp='1504641792' post='3366341']
And finally I routed the neck taper. Using another of my uttlerly hideously ugly jigs. If you are of a weak constitution, or are a proper woodworker, look away now.


The neck is narrow - 38mm at the nut with 18mm string spacing at the bridge - so I've kept it a reasonable thickness front to back, 22mm at the nut and 24mm at the 12th fret. Lots of people seem to like using graphite rods but my novice prejudice tells me not to. I feel as though they would fight the truss rod and I'd rather have the neck 1 or 2mm thicker. The flatsawn neck blank seemed to have pretty straight grain so I'm hoping for a stable neck.....

If I have some time tomorrow, I'll start on the neck carve.

Thanks for visiting.
[/quote]

When you're gettin' jiggy widdit it is bound to be ugly to onlookers.

The results you are getting however are anything but ugly. Leave it to the tool makers to tart up jigs. It's more important to think of substance over style.

Having said that, I like your drill press for its clamp. It looks beautifully simple for clamping flat work.

Edited September 6, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[honza992]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1504680269' post='3366462']
Leave it to the tool makers to tart up jigs.
[/quote]

Ha ha ha, ironically I come from a family of tool makers. Or at least my mother does, and Archdale is the name that will go on the headstock. Admitedly they made machine tools not too relevant to guitar making, but I guess the principles are the same.

[And if anyone has any memories of working with Archdale machine tools, or even more amazingly still uses one I'd love to hear about it.]

[honza992]

Just a quick question today.

I'm going to use General Finishes High Perforance as the top clearcoat on both the body and neck. It's a water based polyurethane which seems to be pretty forgiving in application (I'll be spraying it) but it lacks the warmth an 'pop-ability-ness-itude' which oil based finishes have.

So, does anyone have any idea how I can pop grain under a waterbased finish? Without using dye or stain? And ideally without darkening the maple? If I can I'd like to keep the maple as pale as possible.

I'm hoping the answer is shellac, so today I started doing some tests on some scrap.

On the left is some Zinsser SealCoat, which as I understand is 2 pound blonde shellac. I've diluted it with meths to make a 1 pound cut. On the right is some garnet shellac, made fresh from flakes, also a 1 pound cut.

I'm going to try applying each of them to some maple scrap, then seeing if I can gently sand it back so that the maple remains natural in colour, but the shellac that has sunk into the grain will still pop the flame in the top/neck.

Anyone know if this is going to work?

Or can anyone think of any other way of poping grain but not darkening the wood too much? That's compatible with polyurethane?

Edited September 6, 2017 by honza992

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='honza992' timestamp='1504722478' post='3366914']
Ha ha ha, ironically I come from a family of tool makers. Or at least my mother does, and Archdale is the name that will go on the headstock. Admitedly they made machine tools not too relevant to guitar making, but I guess the principles are the same.

[And if anyone has any memories of working with Archdale machine tools, or even more amazingly still uses one I'd love to hear about it.]
[/quote]

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/James_Archdale_and_Co
You have an impressive maternal heritage if this is the firm.

[quote name='honza992' timestamp='1504723353' post='3366920']
Just a quick question today.

I'm going to use General Finishes High Perforance as the top clearcoat on both the body and neck. It's a water based polyurethane which seems to be pretty forgiving in application (I'll be spraying it) but it lacks the warmth an 'pop-ability-ness-itude' which oil based finishes have.

So, does anyone have any idea how I can pop grain under a waterbased finish? Without using dye or stain? And ideally without darkening the maple? If I can I'd like to keep the maple as pale as possible.

I'm hoping the answer is shellac, so today I started doing some tests on some scrap.

On the left is some Zinsser SealCoat, which as I understand is 2 pound blonde shellac. I've diluted it with meths to make a 1 pound cut. On the right is some garnet shellac, made fresh from flakes, also a 1 pound cut.

[Image deleted]

I'm going to try applying each of them to some maple scrap, then seeing if I can gently sand it back so that the maple remains natural in colour, but the shellac that has sunk into the grain will still pop the flame in the top/neck.

Anyone know if this is going to work?

Or can anyone think of any other way of poping grain but not darkening the wood too much? That's compatible with polyurethane?
[/quote]

I'd be inclined to try a bleaching solution on the bare wood first as an experiment. I haven't tried it but it may help keep the pale quality of the maple better once you start with the finishing coats. If the treated wood rejects the finishing coat it would not be a great idea of course so it's just a suggestion to play with.

[Si600]

Andyjr1515 used something on the Psilos bass that hardly darkened the wood, to the extent that to my eyes from the photos it looks unfinished. That may be of interest?

[TheGreek]

[quote name='Si600' timestamp='1504772370' post='3367143']
Andyjr1515 used something on the Psilos bass that hardly darkened the wood, to the extent that to my eyes from the photos it looks unfinished. That may be of interest?
[/quote]

I was going to suggest the same - leaves a lovely satin feel to the bass too which makes playing it a joy.

[Jabba_the_gut]

I believe Andy used one of the Osmo oils for Micks bass - I think he mentioned which one in the build thread. Got a feeling it was the 3044 one. I also seem to recall that there was some form of whitener in it which might not be what you want if you have any darker woods in your build. Best speak to Andy around this one.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Jabba_the_gut

[honza992]

Thanks everyone. Yes, from the build thread for Psilos he says its Osmo Raw I've actually already got some of the Raw and the normal Osmo (without the whitener) which I've never used. I bought it to do some tests then ended up going with something else. I'll drop him a PM if he doesn't chime up in the meantime.

My aim with finishing is:

1. Satin finish
2. Reasonably toddler resistant (I've found the General Finishes High Performance polyurethane holds up pretty well)
3. Good grain pop
4. Keep the maple as white as possible on the body, happy for the neck to be a bit more tinted
5. Warm up and darken the mahogany as it is a bit pale. However, it does have some lighter sap wood in the middle which I don't want to obscure.
6. Application by a numpty

I realise that some of these may be mutually incompatible.

My initial experiment of applying shellac (to warm the waterbase finish) then sand is back so the 'fields' return to their un-shellaced colour was not a success. As I feared it came out a bit blotchy.

So my current plan is to use blonde shellac on the maple (including the neck) and the garnet shellac on the mahogany. Over everything I will then spray the polyurethane. I hear different opinions about how to achieve a satin finish with spraying. One school of thought is to use a satin version of the clearcoat. The other school of thought is that that can obscure the grain (becuase of the flatteners) and you are better spraying gloss then rubbing it out with 0000 or 1-2000 abralon. I'm currently sitting slightly precariously on the fence. If anyone has any views I would love to hear them.

I also need to grain fill the mahogany. Maybe if I were to add a stain to that it could warm and darken the mahogany that way without have to add in an extra seperate staining stage.

Any thoughts or advice?

God I hate finishing.....

[honza992]

I made some alternative knobs today. James at JC Tonewoods (where I got the fretboard from) sent a couple of bridge blanks from the same lot of ebony. They're quite dark, mostly dark brown/black rather than the more light brown of the fretboard, but I think that will work quite well for the bridge. The blank I'm using was big enough for the bridge and to make some knobs, so that's what I did....



I think I prefer them to the ones I made earlier. They'll match the bridge and also the ebony (ok ebano, a fake ebony) binding I'm thinking of using.

[honza992]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1504766611' post='3367089']

I'd be inclined to try a bleaching solution on the bare wood first as an experiment.
[/quote]

Yep, good idea. I once tried the Liberon Wood Bleacher on ash and it made no difference whatsoever. It may work differently on maple of course. I'll give it a go. My instinct though is that it may need a stronger two part bleach, I think Rustins do one. Though this may be an experiment too far, we'll see how I feel!

[honza992]

OK, just a quick update about the binding. I've decided to go with the ivoroid so first up was to prepare some binding tape. Cut 66 pieces and I'm beginning to run out of suitable surface....



The plastic binding dissolves in acetone, so rather than use glue I just wick in some acetone using a pipette and that melts the binding enough that it sticks to the wood. I hold it with my fingers for 10 seconds or so then use some tape to clamp it. It works pretty well. Taped up for the night....


Once the binding is done the body is more or less complete apart from sanding. The neck is also pretty much done so if I get some time tomorrow I'll start the bridge and the nut.

The eagle-eyed among you will notice that I haven't done a pickup rout. I'm in two minds. Part of me wants a jazz pickup in the bridge position to complement the rounder tones of the piezo, part of me wants to keep the top as clean as possible, and a pickup would detract from the woods. Decisions decisions.....

[Jabba_the_gut]

Really liking this build! I know what you mean regarding the pickup vs clean lines. I guess ultimately you could fit a jazz pickup later if you decide you want more than the piezo offers. Cheers

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='honza992' timestamp='1505329052' post='3371136']
OK, just a quick update about the binding. I've decided to go with the ivoroid so first up was to prepare some binding tape. Cut 66 pieces and I'm beginning to run out of suitable surface....



The plastic binding dissolves in acetone, so rather than use glue I just wick in some acetone using a pipette and that melts the binding enough that it sticks to the wood. I hold it with my fingers for 10 seconds or so then use some tape to clamp it. It works pretty well. Taped up for the night....


Once the binding is done the body is more or less complete apart from sanding. The neck is also pretty much done so if I get some time tomorrow I'll start the bridge and the nut.

The eagle-eyed among you will notice that I haven't done a pickup rout. I'm in two minds. Part of me wants a jazz pickup in the bridge position to complement the rounder tones of the piezo, part of me wants to keep the top as clean as possible, and a pickup would detract from the woods. Decisions decisions.....
[/quote]

You could make a wooden case for the pick-up if you have enough scrap from your top.

I like the avoidance of messy glue on your binding. Do you know how resilient the bond is likely to be long term?

[honza992]

[quote name='Jabba_the_gut' timestamp='1505334096' post='3371196']
Really liking this build! I know what you mean regarding the pickup vs clean lines. I guess ultimately you could fit a jazz pickup later if you decide you want more than the piezo offers. Cheers
[/quote]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1505387249' post='3371494']
You could make a wooden case for the pick-up if you have enough scrap from your top.
[/quote]

Or I could do a combination of both excellent suggestions. I'll keep it plain for now, with a view to making a wooden pickup cover at a later date. Deal.

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1505387249' post='3371494']
I like the avoidance of messy glue on your binding. Do you know how resilient the bond is likely to be long term?
[/quote]

Well I used acetone for the first time a year ago and it's holidng fine. It seems to be a farily recognized technique so fingers crossed it holds ok.

[honza992]

[quote name='honza992' timestamp='1505414498' post='3371815']
Well I used acetone for the first time a year ago and it's holidng fine. It seems to be a farily recognized technique so fingers crossed it holds ok.
[/quote]

Fate? Want to see some puppies?

Trully the worst timed post ever. The binding is not holding fine. Annoying, I've never had this issue before. Though as I was doing it I felt like something wasn't quite going right. I'm undecided whether to repair it (by wicking in a bit more acetone in the spots where its lifted) or rout it off completely and try again. I shall sleep on it.

[honza992]

In better news I've more or less finished the bridge.

First I routed the slot for saddle using this abomination. In case it's not clear, the router (with a bushing) runs along the left straight edge and is supported by the other. The short straight edge and ruler are stops to make sure the slot is routed the right length.

Does it fit? Yes. Ok, it's a bit long. Mearsuing was never my strong point. Mm, inches, furlongs? All the same to me.

I then marked on the string locations, drilled and counter sunk the string holes, shaped the top then did lots of sanding to end up with this:

I'm pretty happy. Ebony is such a joy to work with. Or at least it's a joy to sand. Each time you go up a grit your grin gets bigger!

(The saddle is scrap, still waiting for a thicker blank to arrive, but I thought it added to the composition!)

Edited September 15, 2017 by honza992

[SpondonBassed]

Lovely. I hope your binding issues are easily fixed.

[honza992]

OK, not much of an update. Other than I pulled off the binding are re-did it with a new piece. I don't know whether the material it's made from has changed slightly, but the acetone seems to be making it much softer than I remember. No issue, but the second time I left it for two days before taking off the tape and this time it seems to have worked fine. Glued solidly. I've scraped it flush with the body so really all that remains is putting everthing together then stringing it up so I can mark the exact bridge location and get the through body holes drilled.

The other thing I've been doing is a million experients with finishes. I've got a few lying around - Tru oil, Liberon finishing oil and Osmo Satin (3032). On the maple top they are all very very similar in look, you'd be hard pressed to tell them apart other than the Tru oil is slightly darker. Obviously they all give an amber finish to the maple which unfortunately clashes a bit with the fretboard, which is brown.

So I think I need to keep the maple a more natural colour. I think there are two possibilities. First is use the Osmo Raw which Andy used with great success on his Psilos build, the second is to spray General Finishes High Performance without any tint. It seems a bit of a shame though not to make the most of the flame in the maple, so I may try the dye-and-sand-back method to highlight it before applying the finish. I;ve never done that before though, so it makes me a bit nervous. So yet more experimentation awaits. Though it will have to wait a couple of weeks before I can get back in the workshop.

Oh, I forgot that I also made the nut. I sanded the blank to thickness on my high tech nut making jig....

then put it in the neck to get the width right so the nut is nicely flush....(plastic piping is a great sanding block)

Then I cut the slots with some nut files, finishing up with the blank in the neck to get the depth right.

There's two layers of sensitive masking tape on the neck, so when the file starts scraping that I stop. I'm hoping that will give a tiny bit of mwah ( ) in the open position. 'Course I'm a fretless newbie so this is all experimentation!

That's it. Thanks for stopping by.

[Norris]

I used an adhesive called Weld-On for my celluloid binding. It has a high acetone content. I had no issues getting it to stay put and with no visible glue line. The only slight issue was the 10 minute working time, but that's not an issue if you've pre-bent the binding and prepared your masking tape strips in advance

[honza992]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1506344842' post='3378051']
I used an adhesive called Weld-On for my celluloid binding. It has a high acetone content. I had no issues getting it to stay put and with no visible glue line. The only slight issue was the 10 minute working time, but that's not an issue if you've pre-bent the binding and prepared your masking tape strips in advance
[/quote]
OK, thanks, that's good to know. I may well give that a try next time.

[Si600]

[quote name='honza992' timestamp='1504298401' post='3364046']




I then put the inserts in by putting them onto a threaded rod and turn the drill by hand to force them into the hole. This ensures then go in vertically rather than wobbling around all over the place which is what happens if I do it by hand.


[/quote]

How do you screw the inserts in? I'm refurbishing a garden bench at the moment, and on all the inserts I've seen the thread goes all the way through, so using a threaded rod like that won't screw the insert in.

I did think of lining it up with a piece of plain bar, but again you can't get the hex key in the end to screw it in as the bar/threaded rod is in the way.

Confuddled

[honza992]

[quote name='Si600' timestamp='1507284177' post='3384460']
How do you screw the inserts in? I'm refurbishing a garden bench at the moment, and on all the inserts I've seen the thread goes all the way through, so using a threaded rod like that won't screw the insert in.

I did think of lining it up with a piece of plain bar, but again you can't get the hex key in the end to screw it in as the bar/threaded rod is in the way.

Confuddled
[/quote]

The method I use came about by accident rather than design. You can't quite see in the photo, but I put two inserts on the threaded rod at once. So in the picture, the one you can see is actually the upper one, and the lower one (the one that will live inside the neck) is already screwed in and out of sight. I found that once two inserts were on the rod and finger-tightened next to each other, that is enough to stop the threaded rod simply turning and the inserts not moving. I guess the inserts aren't machined completely precisely, so they sort of jam together and that's enough to block the movement of the threaded rod. I'm not sure I've explained that very well but give it a go! It can be annoying because having been jammed together by the pressure of being inserted into the neck, they can sometimes be hard to get apart - I've had to resort to pliers on occasion.

I nicked my general method from the Manchester Guitar Tech site, but I can't quite remember how he stopped the rod simply from turning in the insert, and for some reason he's taken down that blog entry. It occurs to me now that maybe just by making an indent on the threaded rod (so that the thread is no longer continuous) would be enough to force the insert in.

I've got no doubt that there is an extremely simple and widely used methodology for doing this. So if anyone knows what it is, please let us know. Ta muchly.

[SpondonBassed]

I can only think of heli-coil inserts used in light engineering. They have an internal tang that provides the drive when installing the insert. The tang is then snapped off with a reverse twist of the installation tool. It is sometimes called a wire insert as it is fabricated from wire that has the inside and outside thread forms in cross section.

Probably not suitable for wood. They used to be used for things like engine exhaust manifold studs where they've pulled the old thread out from the head.

This might help;
[url="http://www.lawsonproducts.com/images/DV_WebLarge_P_635_LD2.jpg"]https://www.lawsonpro...e_P_635_LD2.jpg[/url]
[url="https://www.lawsonproducts.com/lawson/Wood-Thread-Insert/96747.lp"]https://www.lawsonpr...Insert/96747.lp[/url]

Edited October 8, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[honza992]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1507462001' post='3385553']
I can only think of heli-coil inserts used in light engineering. They have an internal tang that provides the drive when installing the insert. The tang is then snapped off with a reverse twist of the installation tool. It is sometimes called a wire insert as it is fabricated from wire that has the inside and outside thread forms in cross section.

Probably not suitable for wood. They used to be used for things like engine exhaust manifold studs where they've pulled the old thread out from the head.

This might help;
[url="http://www.lawsonproducts.com/images/DV_WebLarge_P_635_LD2.jpg"]https://www.lawsonpro...e_P_635_LD2.jpg[/url]
[url="https://www.lawsonproducts.com/lawson/Wood-Thread-Insert/96747.lp"]https://www.lawsonpr...Insert/96747.lp[/url]
[/quote]

Thanks SB. I've never seen those heli coil inserts before. They look fantastic, a really elegant solution. A quick google search shows amazon sells an M5 kit for £13 including a tap, drill bit etc etc:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-127589-Thread-Repair-Helicoil/dp/B001C7QYB4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1507484881&sr=8-2&keywords=helicoil+kit

I think I would still want to have the tap in a drill press so that it was at 90 degrees to the wood. I may well give it a try at some point.



Another possible solution has occured to me. The inserts I've been using are hex-driven. So one method I tried in the past was to put a short piece of hex rod into my drill press then drive the insert into the neck using that. The problem I found was that the M5 threaded inserts (which I buy from here http://www.theinsertcompany.com/index.php ) are supposedly sized for an M5 allen key. However either the hex hole in the insert isn't exactly 5mm or the hex rod I had wasn't accurately 5mm, but there was so much slop that the insert wasn't being driven in at 90 degrees. It occurs to me though that maybe buying 4.5mm hex rod (or alternatively a 4.5mm allen key then cutting off the short side) then sanding it down so that it was a tight fit in the insert would also work. Again, I'll give it a go at some point.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='honza992' timestamp='1507485718' post='3385804']
Thanks SB. I've never seen those heli coil inserts before. They look fantastic, a really elegant solution. A quick google search shows amazon sells an M5 kit for £13 including a tap, drill bit etc etc:

[url="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-127589-Thread-Repair-Helicoil/dp/B001C7QYB4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1507484881&sr=8-2&keywords=helicoil+kit"]https://www.amazon.c...ds=helicoil+kit[/url]

I think I would still want to have the tap in a drill press so that it was at 90 degrees to the wood. I may well give it a try at some point.



Another possible solution has occured to me. The inserts I've been using are hex-driven. So one method I tried in the past was to put a short piece of hex rod into my drill press then drive the insert into the neck using that. The problem I found was that the M5 threaded inserts (which I buy from here [url="http://www.theinsertcompany.com/index.php"]http://www.theinsert...y.com/index.php[/url] ) are supposedly sized for an M5 allen key. However either the hex hole in the insert isn't exactly 5mm or the hex rod I had wasn't accurately 5mm, but there was so much slop that the insert wasn't being driven in at 90 degrees. It occurs to me though that maybe buying 4.5mm hex rod (or alternatively a 4.5mm allen key then cutting off the short side) then sanding it down so that it was a tight fit in the insert would also work. Again, I'll give it a go at some point.
[/quote]

I hope I haven't misled you into thinking that the links I provided are for helicoils. They aren't. They are for solid inserts. The link you posted is suitable for wood as well.

This link shows the helicoil a bit better;
[url="http://www.toolsinstock.com/search?q=helicoil+birmingham"]http://www.toolsinst...coil+birmingham[/url]

I shouldn't have mentioned them in retrospect as they really only work for metal parts. It was the question of how they are driven into the parent component that made me think of them. If you look closely at the third photo down you can see where there is a notch in the wire insert to allow the tang to be broken off.

Edited October 9, 2017 by SpondonBassed