Learning scales at last

[bonzodog]

I am a self taught bassist/guitarist. Spent my youth playing in originals bands and after a long break i am now in my 40s playing in a covers band. In all bands I've never needed to learn much theory and especially now I just learn the bassline to the song we are covering.

Kids are a bit older now and wife is always out so I decided to go back to basics and learn a load of scales, dorian, locrian etc
Wow...what a revelation. I have never enjoyed playing bass this much and can hardly put it down. Stick my earphones into my amp linked up to you tube for some jamming backing tracks in a chosen key and I'm in heaven. Noodling for hours!!

Anyone else gone back to learning scales many years after picking up the bass?

[Coilte]

If you are having fun and enjoying yourself..best of luck to you. It will certainly help with ear training. However, while there is no doubt that scales are important, IMO it would be more beneficial to concentrate on chord tones, as this is what the bassist plays 90% of the time. Learn how chords are derived from scales and how to harmonise the major scale. This, IMO would be better than playing modes, which are generally left until the basics are under the belt.


Check out this lesson from "Studybass".


https://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/

[pbasspecial]

This and then playing the stronger notes (chord tones) on the 1 & 3 (Kick Drum) and the weaker notes (2, 4, 6 and chromatic/passing notes) on the 2 & 4 or snare drum in standard 4/4 time signature.

[Coilte]

Further to my earlier suggestion about learning to harmonise the Major scale....:

The link below explains this. It is part one of a set of three. If you don't understand the terminology he uses or if you are completely in the dark as to what he is talking about... (whole steps..half steps etc)... you will have to go and start at "ground zero". That "Studybass" site will help you here. Go to the study guide, start at the beginning, and work your way through the lessons.

IMO with modes, you are starting the learning journey somewhere in the middle, so you are bound to have to waste time back peddling because the basics were not nailed at the start.

All the above is assuming you want to learn some basic theory from the ground up.


[url="http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2012/03/20/harmonizing-the-major-scale-using-a-number-system-on-bass-part-1/"]http://www.notreble....on-bass-part-1/[/url]

Edited August 5, 2017 by Coilte

[blue]

[quote name='pbasspecial' timestamp='1501925527' post='3348231']
This and then playing the stronger notes (chord tones) on the 1 & 3 (Kick Drum) and the weaker notes (2, 4, 6 and chromatic/passing notes) on the 2 & 4 or snare drum in standard 4/4 time signature.
[/quote]

Playing with metronome will help your timing. Most of us are rushing and we don't even know it.

Go to YouTube and search 140 BPM and your good to go.

Blue

[KingPrawn]

I'm in exactly the same situation. I am being assisted by our very own ambient. A fine teacher. It's liberating to say the least

[JamesBass]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1501946521' post='3348414']


Playing with metronome will help your timing. Most of us are rushing and we don't even know it.

Go to YouTube and search 140 BPM and your good to go.

Blue
[/quote]
I'm naturally behind the beat. As for 140 BPM, that's too fast to really progress your time feel. I would suggest start as slow as possible, often 70 to 80 BPM is good, some students I make go down to 60BPM. Learn how to feel subdivisions too and learn how to consciously syncopate.

[EssentialTension]

Yes, if you can't play it slow then you probably can't play it fast.

[Coilte]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1501953539' post='3348472']
140 BPM, that's too fast to really progress your time feel. I would suggest start as slow as possible, often 70 to 80 BPM is good, some students I make go down to 60BPM.
[/quote]


[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1501954641' post='3348482']
Yes, if you can't play it slow then you probably can't play it fast.
[/quote]


Agreed. A slow blues is one of the hardest things to play.

[Crawford13]

I don't understand the direction this thread has taken. The original poster is talking about how much he is enjoying learning scales, and everyone has jumped in suggesting he should do this, and that. I'm glad you are enjoying playing again, and hope you continue to be inspired!

[Coilte]

[quote name='Crawford13' timestamp='1501960102' post='3348524']
I don't understand the direction this thread has taken. The original poster is talking about how much he is enjoying learning scales, and everyone has jumped in suggesting he should do this, and that. I'm glad you are enjoying playing again, and hope you continue to be inspired!
[/quote]

I doubt if anyone begrudges the OP his new found inspiration. For my own part, I was merely suggesting other paths of learning that he could traverse, which will I'm sure be equally inspiring.

[Burns-bass]

Scales are wonderful things, but don't be limited by them. If great composers taught us anything it's that pretty much any note can work in a given situation.

It's fantastic to get the scales in your fingers, try visualising them in your mind when you're playing. It's a revalation.

[bazzbass]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1501924966' post='3348227']
IMO it would be more beneficial to concentrate on chord tones, as this is what the bassist plays 90% of the time. Learn how chords are derived from scales and how to harmonise the major scale. This, IMO would be better than playing modes, which are generally left until the basics are under the belt.
[/quote]


THIS. If you learn nothing else for the rest of your playing days, learning the chord tones for all the chord types will have you ALWAYS playing the RIGHT notes

take this advice to the bank

Edited August 6, 2017 by bazztard

[Phil Starr]

I'm probably in the same place as Bonzodog. I started with covers bands within months of picking up the bass and the pressure of always learning the next song. (just off to run through 50 songs I haven't played in a while for an occasional duo i play in for next week for example). I'm not averse to learning a bit of musical theory, it's really interesting and I'm confident that it would benefit my playing but I also know the benefits of just learning the songs and it's hard to take a step back for longer term thinking.

I'm also confident that our OP will have picked up a lot of bits of musical theory on the way. Learning the scales is surely just shorthand for improving his understanding of theory.

So I'm really interested in how he gets on, and how it directly affects his playing. Is it really worth my while in terms of stage performance to ease up on the practice and learning of songs to deepen my understanding of theory?

Edited August 6, 2017 by Phil Starr

[Coilte]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1502007083' post='3348666']
I'm not averse to learning a bit of musical theory, it's really interesting and I'm confident that it would benefit my playing but I also know the benefits of just learning the songs and it's hard to take a step back for longer term thinking.
[/quote]

It all depends on a person's goals and how far they want to go with their learning and playing. Yes, a person will get by knowing little or no theory by simply copying other peoples lines. If this is what floats your boat then...happy days. However, in order to understand the nuts and bolts of music.. (and IMO to appreciate it more)...not to mention being able to come up with your OWN bass lines, then a good grasp of basic theory will pay dividends.

Even in a covers band, knowing your chord tones can be very beneficial. For example sometimes for various reasons a song is not played in it's original key. A player without a grasp of theory and who relies on patterns alone will be totally lost in this situation. If however, you know some theory, you will be easily able to change over to the new set of chords. Theory never held anyone back...even those in cover bands.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Coilte

[JamesBass]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1502007083' post='3348666']
I'm probably in the same place as Bonzodog. I started with covers bands within months of picking up the bass and the pressure of always learning the next song. (just off to run through 50 songs I haven't played in a while for an occasional duo i play in for next week for example). I'm not averse to learning a bit of musical theory, it's really interesting and I'm confident that it would benefit my playing but I also know the benefits of just learning the songs and it's hard to take a step back for longer term thinking.

I'm also confident that our OP will have picked up a lot of bits of musical theory on the way. Learning the scales is surely just shorthand for improving his understanding of theory.

So I'm really interested in how he gets on, and how it directly affects his playing. Is it really worth my while in terms of stage performance to ease up on the practice and learning of songs to deepen my understanding of theory?
[/quote]
Learning songs and learning theory goes hand in hand. It's all well and good learning the latest must play cover song, but if you need to change the key and you don't understand how key signatures work then it's gonna be a hard slog. Same as learning just theory makes it useless if you don't know the context in which to play it.

I would personally recommend everyone taking a song they know how to play really well, and then I'd say look at what the song is doing, what chords are used, what order are the chords played in, make a note of what your bass line is. Then go and learn a bit of theory and begin matching the theory to the songs. This sort of method works best if you have someone there to help point you in the right direct and to clarify things.

A major scale in the key of C is: CDEFGABC. There are 7 "steps" in that scale, and they follow the pattern TTSTTTS, T = Tone or whole step, S = semi-tone or half step. Each of the notes gets assigned a number for where it is in the sequence, ranging from 1-C to 7-B. Those are the 7 basic notes that we harmonise to form chords in the key of C Major. A harmonised major scale follows the chord pattern of Major Minor Minor Major Major Minor and Half-Diminished. So that again is in order of 1- Major-C to 7-Half-Diminished-B. You can now follow common chord progressions in the major scale such as the ever popular 1,4,5. This sort of very quick basic theory combined with learning how to transpose using the circle of 5ths or the cycle of 4ths is so helpful. The circle of 5ths works by taking you root, which for this purpose is C, and then finding the 5th of C, which is G. To prove that, start on C in your major scale and count up with the scale till you find the note G, which is the 5th note in the scale. G now because our new key signature, and repeat. For the cycle of 4ths, take the same principle, just be aware that if you're using the cycle of 4ths notes are enharmonically called by the flat. If using the circle of 5ths the note is enharmonically called by the sharp.

Now you can transpose songs easily as well. If anybody has theory questions I'm always happy to help!

[Dood]

[quote]

{snip}

Now you can transpose songs easily as well. If anybody has theory questions I'm always happy to help!
[/quote]

I understand what you are trying to say in a limited space, but a beginner will look at your paragraph and shrug. [i]You[/i] know what it means,[i] I[/i] know what it means, but there's so much information missing there, it will put students off. Thus I have to say that no, someone seeing this information for the first time won't even know what 'transposing songs' actually means, or indeed what the diatonic chords are and how to create or identify them.

That said, hopefully this post will highlight the importance of getting great teaching, whatever the source, be it online, private teacher, videos, books etc etc

[Phil Starr]

Oh! a bit more response than I was expecting!

It's as if we are on the opposite sides of a chasm of understanding. I doubt very much that anyone here, if they've been playing a couple of years, doesn't know about scales and chord tones, or about which chords go together and form the structure of most of the songs we play (and by implication the circle of fifths). Even transposition is something you won't really avoid, even if all you do is the bassists version of using a capo... move your hand and play the same pattern. Whilst there are a few people who may play everything by a combination of a decent ear and trial and error and proudly proclaim it as the only way I suspect most of us are hungry for any bit of theory that would help our playing.

The trouble is that when someone just says 'learn your scales' it's a meaningless phrase. I'm sure all of us can play a pattern of eight notes and probably know major minor and blues scales (avoiding the mixolydian word here) but if that is all there is to it how does that help? This is where the conversation usually breaks down with frustration on both sides. Most of us can play a major scale, up and down, starting on whichever root note we choose. If we can't we could learn to do so in a few minutes. Surely there is more to it than that? Even calling the notes out as you do it, well I can see that would be useful in learning the fretboard but is that really all there is to it? And how does that help in a practical sense?

Honestly I'm not trying to be contentious, I know the ignorance is mine , I just don't get it and can't understand why the people who do get it can't explain what I have to gain. That's why I'm interested in what the OP gets by making the journey.

[Dood]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1502028303' post='3348813']
Oh! a bit more response than I was expecting!

It's as if we are on the opposite sides of a chasm of understanding. I doubt very much that anyone here, if they've been playing a couple of years, doesn't know about scales and chord tones, or about which chords go together and form the structure of most of the songs we play (and by implication the circle of fifths). Even transposition is something you won't really avoid, even if all you do is the bassists version of using a capo... move your hand and play the same pattern. Whilst there are a few people who may play everything by a combination of a decent ear and trial and error and proudly proclaim it as the only way I suspect most of us are hungry for any bit of theory that would help our playing.

The trouble is that when someone just says 'learn your scales' it's a meaningless phrase. I'm sure all of us can play a pattern of eight notes and probably know major minor and blues scales (avoiding the mixolydian word here) but if that is all there is to it how does that help? This is where the conversation usually breaks down with frustration on both sides. Most of us can play a major scale, up and down, starting on whichever root note we choose. If we can't we could learn to do so in a few minutes. Surely there is more to it than that? Even calling the notes out as you do it, well I can see that would be useful in learning the fretboard but is that really all there is to it? And how does that help in a practical sense?

Honestly I'm not trying to be contentious, I know the ignorance is mine , I just don't get it and can't understand why the people who do get it can't explain what I have to gain. That's why I'm interested in what the OP gets by making the journey.
[/quote]

I wish I wrote that instead, as it's kinda what I was getting at.

I LOVE the OP and that it's a great feeling when something slots together and sounds ace - and it didn't need lots of explaining to make it work and derive a huge amount of pleasure from it. That in itself is awesome and should be rattled out over and over as the sense of achievement will never be lost.

I do agree though that the teaching of theory is often a mess and far from progressive leaving students, musicians confused and unfulfilled. Great teachers are hard to come by and unfortunately, I really don't think the odd paragraph on an internet forum trying to explain what an experienced player thinks is a relatively simple concept is the answer for someone seeing this stuff for the first times.

[Coilte]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1502024379' post='3348789']
I understand what you are trying to say in a limited space, but a beginner will look at your paragraph and shrug.
[/quote]

I agree. A beginner[i] would[/i] shrug if he/she saw music terminology that they did not understand. It was the same when we were learning the alphabet and how to read. We started off simple and built from there. Before long we could read sentences. For that reason it is important for a beginner to start at ...well...the beginning. Too often people starting out go on Youtube, pick a clip that takes their fancy and work on that. They follow it up with another random clip. Then they end up totally confused because they have not done the ground work.

[Coilte]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1502029807' post='3348826']
I do agree though that the teaching of theory is often a mess and far from progressive leaving students, musicians confused and unfulfilled. Great teachers are hard to come by and unfortunately, I really don't think the odd paragraph on an internet forum trying to explain what an experienced player thinks is a relatively simple concept is the answer for someone seeing this stuff for the first times.
[/quote]

I agree with the above. However a beginner has to start somewhere. Often this is the problem...i.e. they are swamped in an ocean of information and don't know where to start. That's why in an earlier post I recommended to the OP (assuming he was interested) the site www.studybass.com. IMO it is one of the best out there because the lessons start simple and each one builds on what went before. Granted, a good teacher would be a better option, but in the absence of one, it is the next best option.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1501923468' post='3348215']
I am a self taught bassist/guitarist. Spent my youth playing in originals bands and after a long break i am now in my 40s playing in a covers band. In all bands I've never needed to learn much theory and especially now I just learn the bassline to the song we are covering.

Kids are a bit older now and wife is always out so I decided to go back to basics and learn a load of scales, dorian, locrian etc
Wow...what a revelation. I have never enjoyed playing bass this much and can hardly put it down. Stick my earphones into my amp linked up to you tube for some jamming backing tracks in a chosen key and I'm in heaven. Noodling for hours!!

Anyone else gone back to learning scales many years after picking up the bass?
[/quote]

Excellent - well done - learning scales is excellent and will give you a number of skills - not least articulation over a scale and also, if you practice them gradually at speed, being able to play more quickly.

I always return to scales, modes and arpeggios when I run out of inspiration - it normally gets the inspiration going again!!

[JamesBass]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1502028303' post='3348813']
Oh! a bit more response than I was expecting!

It's as if we are on the opposite sides of a chasm of understanding. I doubt very much that anyone here, if they've been playing a couple of years, doesn't know about scales and chord tones, or about which chords go together and form the structure of most of the songs we play (and by implication the circle of fifths). Even transposition is something you won't really avoid, even if all you do is the bassists version of using a capo... move your hand and play the same pattern. Whilst there are a few people who may play everything by a combination of a decent ear and trial and error and proudly proclaim it as the only way I suspect most of us are hungry for any bit of theory that would help our playing.

The trouble is that when someone just says 'learn your scales' it's a meaningless phrase. I'm sure all of us can play a pattern of eight notes and probably know major minor and blues scales (avoiding the mixolydian word here) but if that is all there is to it how does that help? This is where the conversation usually breaks down with frustration on both sides. Most of us can play a major scale, up and down, starting on whichever root note we choose. If we can't we could learn to do so in a few minutes. Surely there is more to it than that? Even calling the notes out as you do it, well I can see that would be useful in learning the fretboard but is that really all there is to it? And how does that help in a practical sense?

Honestly I'm not trying to be contentious, I know the ignorance is mine , I just don't get it and can't understand why the people who do get it can't explain what I have to gain. That's why I'm interested in what the OP gets by making the journey.
[/quote]
Your thoughts are well placed, especially if you've been playing and you haven't had to use theory yet. With a good teacher, something of a rarity, the concepts become easier to understand. As I said it's all about the context as well. It's worthwhile learning the theory in something you already know, then branching out to a song you've always wanted to learn. I was fortunate enough to study this stuff at Uni and college where I had some amazing teachers, especially my lecturer at college. He really lit the fire of understanding and wanting to be "clever" in music in me, and since then I've gone ahead and taught myself an awful amount, building from my basic knowledge through books and songs.

I wasn't intending on giving such a reply earlier, I got lost in the theory haha!

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1502029807' post='3348826']


I wish I wrote that instead, as it's kinda what I was getting at.

I LOVE the OP and that it's a great feeling when something slots together and sounds ace - and it didn't need lots of explaining to make it work and derive a huge amount of pleasure from it. That in itself is awesome and should be rattled out over and over as the sense of achievement will never be lost.

I do agree though that the teaching of theory is often a mess and far from progressive leaving students, musicians confused and unfulfilled. Great teachers are hard to come by and unfortunately, I really don't think the odd paragraph on an internet forum trying to explain what an experienced player thinks is a relatively simple concept is the answer for someone seeing this stuff for the first times.
[/quote]
You're spot on. Theory needs more time and it's better face to face than on an internet message board!

Learning theory is a very dynamic process, some days it's frustrating and pointless, other days it clicks and the concepts are clear and easy to understand. All help and advice is useful to someone though. Even if that's not clear to them right away! I'm lucky enough that all my students private and college ones have all bought in time my style of teaching and my approach to music. I tend to look at things from a bigger picture view, more like a band leader or producer would. Sometimes the perfect note is the root player low and straight rock semi-quavers to drive it along!

[Dood]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1502030684' post='3348838']
I agree with the above.[b] However a beginner has to start somewhere[/b]. Often this is the problem...i.e. they are swamped in an ocean of information and don't know where to start. That's why in an earlier post I recommended to the OP (assuming he was interested) the site www.studybass.com. IMO it is one of the best out there because the lessons start simple and each one builds on what went before. Granted, a good teacher would be a better option, but in the absence of one, it is the next best option.
[/quote]

Totally agree. My point focussed on how to explain that 'somewhere' with absolute clarity and for my students to understand and recall that information. The link you mention seems to do a great job of getting down to the nuts and bolts first. To expand, TTSTTTS is useless if you haven't actually explained what T or S actually is and why. "Major Minor Minor..." etc is pointless if you haven't explained that each is a chord and actually, how the chord was made in the first place and why we're even doing it lol. I also think that it's very important to have a clear and methodical, progressive plan of learning, so I also agree with your point regarding being swamped with information (and misinformation) causing frustration and not knowing where to start. Totally, it's not easy. Granted, when I started playing I spent hours upon hours working stuff out by ear, grafting tracks ad travelling many miles to get to see or work with great musicians. Today, there is that and so much more at the touch of a button. Certainly teachers within my area must have gon up ten-fold since I was a kid too.

[Dood]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1502034099' post='3348866']
Your thoughts are well placed, especially if you've been playing and you haven't had to use theory yet. With a good teacher, something of a rarity, the concepts become easier to understand. As I said it's all about the context as well. It's worthwhile learning the theory in something you already know, then branching out to a song you've always wanted to learn. I was fortunate enough to study this stuff at Uni and college where I had some amazing teachers, especially my lecturer at college. He really lit the fire of understanding and wanting to be "clever" in music in me, and since then I've gone ahead and taught myself an awful amount, building from my basic knowledge through books and songs.

I wasn't intending on giving such a reply earlier, I got lost in the theory haha!


You're spot on. Theory needs more time and it's better face to face than on an internet message board!

Learning theory is a very dynamic process, some days it's frustrating and pointless, other days it clicks and the concepts are clear and easy to understand. All help and advice is useful to someone though. Even if that's not clear to them right away! I'm lucky enough that all my students private and college ones have all bought in time my style of teaching and my approach to music. I tend to look at things from a bigger picture view, more like a band leader or producer would. Sometimes the perfect note is the root player low and straight rock semi-quavers to drive it along!
[/quote]

Yup, agreed and adding context in to the mix just makes things even more exciting, even if it does quadruple the word count here