Heresy alert. All of us should learn to play guitar better

[Nicko]

As a converted 6 stringer I find making up bass lines against a particular chord sequence very natural. I already know the chord, and visualise the chord shape on the fretboard, giving me instant access to chord tones without having to worry too much about scales, keys or modes. I know the theory and can do it both ways, but a deeper knowledge of what your guitar player is doing on the fretboard is a good thing.

I think the way to improve my playing on the bass is to play more rhythm guitar, learn more about chord extensions and relax in the knowledge that my chordwork is as good as the guitarists in the band.

Thoughts?

[chris_b]

From what I see, learning to play the piano would be a big help to most bass players and even some guitarists.

[leftybassman392]

Given the way this type of thread usually goes around here I expect two somewhat divergent schools of thought to emerge fairly quickly.

On a more serious note, I originally trained as a guitarist and taught both for many years. I've always advocated making the effort to get some idea what your fellow musicians are doing.

[TimR]

Learn your scales.

[Happy Jack]

Nah. All you need is to learn to drum.

A bloke in a pub told me that so it must be true.

[Les]

Agree with the OP, it's certainly useful if you can play a bit of guitar.

I work keys out with the singer on guitar and also the harmonies before we get to the rehearsal stage.

Also handy if you're jamming/busking/depping and you can glance at the guitarists fretboard and know where's he's at

[Dood]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1502017924' post='3348748']

On a more serious note, I originally trained as a guitarist and taught both for many years. I've always advocated making the effort to get some idea what your fellow musicians are doing.
[/quote]

Yup I very much agree and maybe despair a little at the disparity between the way that guitarists and bassist learn their instrument of choice, given that they 'are' one of the same. So, as one very small example, when I teach, bassists know what chords and keys are all about and guitarists can handle walking the neck. It will help your skills as an individual musician, but also working in a group too.


Oh, and learn to drum too. Really, not just feel when a fill or groove is coming up, but why.


*disclaimer: I know that everyone has very busy lives and it's not always possible to find the time to learn etc etc etc

[FinnDave]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1502020614' post='3348766']
Also handy if you're jamming/busking/depping and you can glance at the guitarists fretboard and know where's he's at
[/quote]

I do that all the time, very confusing if you are playing with a left handed guitarist, though. Or one using non-standard tuning. Or the ultimate nightmare, left handed AND weird tuning!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1502023722' post='3348784']
I do that all the time, very confusing if you are playing with a left handed guitarist, though. Or one using non-standard tuning. Or the ultimate nightmare, left handed AND weird tuning!
[/quote]

Yes, that's what the ears are for.

...

[FinnDave]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1502024495' post='3348790']
Yes, that's what the ears are for.

...


[/quote]

Yep, but that doesn't work if you're on a noisy stage and can't hear the guitar!

[Kiwi]

Already on it. It doesn't help that much musically as much as I thought. Really good fretboard knowledge is needed to get the most out of it as has already been suggested.

After five years, the B string still catches me out if I'm not paying attention. Really wish I was playing a 27" scale baritone guitar sometimes too as the 25" scale is a bit cramped for my fingers. Is there a Musicman Silhouette in my future...?

[Les]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1502023722' post='3348784']
Or the ultimate nightmare, left handed AND weird tuning!
[/quote]

Think you'd just have to accept that the gods are angry with you and you are doomed in those circumstances.

[FinnDave]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1502026286' post='3348804']
Think you'd just have to accept that the gods are angry with you and you are doomed in those circumstances.
[/quote]

[drTStingray]

I've been playing for around 45 years and have never specifically learned chord tones. However I usually am able to identify what chords other band members are playing from my knowledge learnt from, probably in order:-

1) learning thousands of bass parts for songs ranging in complexity from very simple to reasonably complicated.
2) learning all the notes on the fretboard and how to play phrases in different positions
2) learning bass parts played by favourite bass players
3) learning solos played by favourite bass players
4) having a very broad musical taste and listening to a very wide range of music
5) learning scales
6) learning modes
7) learning argeggios
8) along the way figuring out diatonic harmony and playing double stops or three notes chords
9) along the way becoming accustomed to chord tones like 7th, 9th, 13th, diminished, half diminished etc

I think there is quite a misnomer that the bass guitar is a subset of a 6 string guitar - this is as wrong as saying a double bass is a sub set of a cello or violin - apart from the physical similarities their function is quite different - in the case of guitar v bass guitar the only similarity is theyre strung instruments and can be held the same way - the music played on them is completely different, requiring a different mind set to play ensemble.

I have been told several times during my playing years that bass players can't be any good unless they can play guitar - I'm afraid that's nonsense.

Learning chord tones per se can broaden a bass player's ability - however I wouldn't see it as a pre requisite - it can be very helpful in jazz when comping with a piano player in the band as seeing/hearing their chords can help in choosing notes on the bass. If you're going to do things on the fly it's also v important to know the effect playing say a 3rd note against the root chord is - because it will colour the music in a certain way (used quite often in Abba - an example is Dancing Queen). Otherwise the bass will probably play the root note (the safe option). The octave you play that in will have a marked impact on the sound though.

Edited August 6, 2017 by drTStingray

[Dood]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1502025567' post='3348799']
Really wish I was playing a 27" scale baritone guitar sometimes too as the 25" scale is a bit cramped for my fingers. Is there a Musicman Silhouette in my future...?
[/quote]

I've got an Ibanez with a 26.5" scale. It's designed for being tuned a tone down as standard, but I leave it up in 'E'. It's only a small difference but it's easier for my massive hands to get round with the extra inch on the scale length. This gives a bit more room between the frets!

[machinehead]

I played 6 string guitar in bands form c1969 to c1985. The bass player couldn't make a gig so I stood in on bass guitar.

I loved it so much that I immediately changed to bass and never played guitar on stage again.

So, to me it's a great advantage being able to read a guitar player's fingers at a jam or when depping. I also know loads of chords and various shapes in all the positions right up the neck. It helps me a lot.

I can also think like a guitarist when playing bass lines so I think that helps me to play [u][i]with[/i][/u] the guitarist in a creative way. Or something like that.

Frank.

Frank.

[Cato]

Apart from anything else playing guitar is fun.

I started off teaching myself guitar on a £20 nylon string student job, then I got my first bass.

Most of my time in bands has been as a guitarist, even though a lot of the time I would rather have been on bass.

A knowledge of chords is certainly useful when playing bass and, possibly controversially, I think a knowledge of bass theory, particularly walking lines, is useful when soloing on guitar.

[leschirons]

Yes handy being able to identify stuff by looking at the guitarist's hands and I do also play guitar and know lots of chords but I think what mainly gets me through gigs and deps is having learned the song in the first place.

I can see how it all may help in a jam/open mic situation but invariably, people will want to play the same old stuff that most people know. Even if I've never played it, the chances are I've heard it at some point in the last 65 years😂

[ribbetingfrog]

The great man that is Billy Sheehan said in a lesson of his that I watched you need to learn guitar, it is an essential songwriting tool.
His word is law in my book.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='ribbetingfrog' timestamp='1502054214' post='3349063']
The great man that is Billy Sheehan said in a lesson of his that I watched you need to learn guitar, it is an essential songwriting tool.
His word is law in my book.
[/quote]

Does Elton John know this..?

[Dood]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1502047621' post='3348990']
I played 6 string guitar in bands form c1969 to c1985. The bass player couldn't make a gig so I stood in on bass guitar.

I loved it so much that I immediately changed to bass and never played guitar on stage again.

So, to me it's a great advantage [b]being able to read a guitar player's fingers at a jam or when depping[/b]. I also know loads of chords and various shapes in all the positions right up the neck. It helps me a lot.

I can also think like a guitarist when playing bass lines so I think that helps me to play [u][i]with[/i][/u] the guitarist in a creative way. Or something like that.

Frank.

Frank.
[/quote]

I've surprised quite a few people when I've done Deps; they have asked on the spot if I knew a particular song and my answer was no, but I can read the guitarist's hand anyway! It's a great skill to have

[JapanAxe]

I think anything that broadens your musicianship is going to be good for your playing.

[ivansc]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1502024662' post='3348794']
Yep, but that doesn't work if you're on a noisy stage and can't hear the guitar!
[/quote]

You ARE joking, aren't you???

[FinnDave]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1502091577' post='3349159']
You ARE joking, aren't you???


[/quote]

Unfortunately not, from my side of the stage, the drummer and harp man often drown out the guitar. I try to get the guitarist to set up on the same side as me when possible. As for the harp man, the further away the better, preferably in the next county!

[Nicko]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1502032564' post='3348853']
I've been playing for around 45 years and have never specifically learned chord tones. However I usually am able to identify what chords other band members are playing from my knowledge learnt from, probably in order:-

1) learning thousands of bass parts for songs ranging in complexity from very simple to reasonably complicated.
2) learning all the notes on the fretboard and how to play phrases in different positions
2) learning bass parts played by favourite bass players
3) learning solos played by favourite bass players
4) having a very broad musical taste and listening to a very wide range of music
5) learning scales
6) learning modes
7) learning argeggios
8) along the way figuring out diatonic harmony and playing double stops or three notes chords
9) along the way becoming accustomed to chord tones like 7th, 9th, 13th, diminished, half diminished etc

I think there is quite a misnomer that the bass guitar is a subset of a 6 string guitar - this is as wrong as saying a double bass is a sub set of a cello or violin - apart from the physical similarities their function is quite different - in the case of guitar v bass guitar the only similarity is theyre strung instruments and can be held the same way - the music played on them is completely different, requiring a different mind set to play ensemble.

I have been told several times during my playing years that bass players can't be any good unless they can play guitar - I'm afraid that's nonsense.

Learning chord tones per se can broaden a bass player's ability - however I wouldn't see it as a pre requisite - it can be very helpful in jazz when comping with a piano player in the band as seeing/hearing their chords can help in choosing notes on the bass. If you're going to do things on the fly it's also v important to know the effect playing say a 3rd note against the root chord is - because it will colour the music in a certain way (used quite often in Abba - an example is Dancing Queen). Otherwise the bass will probably play the root note (the safe option). The octave you play that in will have a marked impact on the sound though.
[/quote]

I think you completely missed the point I made in the OP. All of the above theory is great and we should all know those things as well, but we all know the best sounds will be those that are in the chord (unless you as a bass player choose to alter the chord by augmenting it). I'm simply saying the best notes are easy to find by imagining the guitar chordbox on your fretboard. Finding a bass note to resolve a lick - irrespective of the song's key - is easier.

When I'm talking about augmenting what I really mean is using your guitar knowledge to play bass better (eg if you know a sus4 chord will sound good, why not build a riif on the 3rd/4th, or if you think an add 9 chord works in that song play a 2nd etc)