Is TAB really that evil?

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='TCsBass' timestamp='1503618526' post='3359798']
Tablature isn't necessarily evil, but it does limit you as a player to one person's idea of fingerings and only one way of doing things...
[/quote]

Rubbish!

You limit yourself. It isn't the tab's fault. You can get badly written score and all you know. I look at many sources of tab, not just one. I never rely on just one interpretation of a song. It would be daft to do so.

Another point. All you folk who are poo-pooing tab because it has no meter are living in the past. Tab can be written with tails on the numbers just the same as you can with dots.

Cuh!

Sorry for unloading on you TCsBass but I see a lot of pretentious crap being said by die-hard score users so it is important to redress the balance. There is a choice of ways to read and write music and they both work. That is all.

Edited August 25, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1503627331' post='3359809']
... as could be done with tab, could it not..? Again, I'm not attacking dots, just suggesting that many folks use tab well (and many not...), and it's not always necessary nor useful to learn Latin terms for many modern idioms that will have to be written up as annotations in any case. If jazzers can get by with just a few scribbled Nashville numbers, surely a tab score could be accepted as being sometimes, at least, legitimate..? It's the 'there is only one true path' that grates. As has been admitted already, some annotations are diagrams, or coloured forms for certain compositions. Why not just accept tab for what it does; limited, certainly, but fit for purpose for many musicians the world over..?
[/quote]

I [i]am[/i] attacking dots as a sight impaired player.

Dots are THE problem, not the ledger lines and not the tails. You probably look at a dot and see whether it is solid or empty, whether it is on a line or between lines, whether it has a sharp or a flat to take it out of the key signature for a moment. I see a blur sometimes. Other times I get a double image. Numbers are less ambiguous and I can read them a lot faster than the pre-school pace that score reduces me to. Score is a handicap for me.

With score I have to sit down with a cup of tea and study like I was back in school. Knackers to that! I just want to get on and play. I am not the perpetual student.

If I have offended anyone I am sorry. I say as I find.

Edited August 25, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[The Jaywalker]

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Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[Raymondo]

No, it couldnt. Categorically. TAB cannot be given to musicians as a notated part they are expected to perform in the manner of standard notation. Thats one if the most ridiculous notions I've ever heard.

Standard notation doesnt use Latin terms.

Annotations are common practice in arranging. Always have been.

Jazzers do not use the Nashville numbers system.

A "Tab Score" is a non-existent entity; score being the collated parts of a complete ensemble arrangement presented as a single entity on multiple staves.
(Caveat - I could be wrong here: perhaps piano/keys, drum, sax, trumpet, violin etc TAB also exists....erm...)
As previously intimated, giving someone a TAB "part" is never legitimate. TAB is both unfit - and unintended for - this purpose.

I'm glad you weren't "attacking dots" given the lack of knowledge displayed. Thats the issue here. A deep dislike of musical learning and any (perceived) hint that A may be better than B.

"there's only one true path" grates..."
Unfortunately, this isnt a matter of opinion. I don't do marmalade sandwich BS where everyone has a right to an equally valid opinion. You're wrong.

Why not follow your own advice and "just accept tab for what it does; limited, certainly, but fit for purpose for many musicians the world over..?" - ie, advice on where to put your fingers on a tune one is familiar with or listening to - rather than espousing uninformed and unreasoned arguments about its potential equal validity with standard notation because folks are somehow oppressing you with their different (valid and informed) opinions.

Crikey that's a bit venomous !

What is this current trend of calling people with a different view "snowflakes" all about?
I guess it's implied that when the temperature rises they melt, however if the temperature drops, they can become blocks of ice.Titanic any one? It really irritates me.

No mater, as you were.

I'll just carry on playing Mustang Sally and that well know jazz classic Moondance. Edited August 14, 2020 by Dad3353

[Dad3353]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1503651608' post='3359906']
No, it couldnt...
[/quote]

Given your entrenched position and inferred opinion on my competence in musical matters, I'm not inclined to answer these points one by one, although tempted, if only for the sake of others here. Hold your righteous views dear; I'll hold and espouse mine, thank you very much.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Dad3353

[chris_b]

TAB isn't evil, but it just tells you where a note is (or not, depending on the person writing it!). There is so much information lacking in TAB that it's use stops beyond being a practice tool.

The Nashville Numbers system is also limited to a specific and simplified way of writing a chord chart for guys who know the feel of the song but not the chords. Some modern country is moving beyond the capabilities of the NN system.

You can (and they do) play any music of every complexity, from solo to multiple orchestras, straight off from the dots.

That is why TAB can never be a substitute for the dots. It might work for untrained people in limited circumstances but TAB is not an alternative to any other system of notation. TAB isn't evil but unless we understand it's place in the scheme of things we shouldn't be making unrealistic claims for it.

[The Jaywalker]

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Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[Dad3353]

Knowledge concerning punctuation is a useful asset, too.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Dad3353

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1503656399' post='3359987']
It might work for untrained people in limited circumstances...
[/quote]

Which, I would respectfully suggest, makes it ideal for a large number of BC members...

Not wishing to labour the point, but not everybody wants or needs to be able to read dots. If that means they're less likely to be taken seriously as musicians by people who take themselves seriously as musicians, I rather suspect most won't worry unduly.



While I'm here, I seem to detect a hint of 'us-and-them' elitism creeping in here (which I have to say I've encountered before in my travels within the industry). People who can read and play to the standard expected of a professional musician have invariably worked hard over a long period of time to get where they are. That doesn't make it all right to be so dismissive of others who have got where they are by different routes (usually for a range of very good reasons). Basschat isn't a professional association, it's an internet forum for people with a shared interest.

Edited August 25, 2017 by leftybassman392

[Les]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1503659578' post='3360035']
Which, I would respectfully suggest, makes it ideal for a large number of BC members...
[/quote]

This

It's a readily available, free and reasonably easy to use tool for getting certain jobs done. Other tools are available.

[The Jaywalker]

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Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[Nicko]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1503651608' post='3359906']
No, it couldnt. Categorically. TAB cannot be given to musicians as a notated part they are expected to perform in the manner of standard notation. Thats one if the most ridiculous notions I've ever heard.

I'm glad you weren't "attacking dots" given the lack of knowledge displayed. Thats the issue here. A deep dislike of musical learning and any (perceived) hint that A may be better than B.

[/quote]

Apologies for truncating the post, and accepting that Dad is more than capable of defending himself.

Speaking as a lesser mortal who was either too stoopid or too lazy to learn dots, the same could be said of standard notation when you give it to me. I'd have no idea what it was supposed to sound like.


Your earlier posts were quite helpful on Tab (basically its OK but limited), but where someone suggests it can do some of the things you say it can't you have launched a quite vicious attack on it and reading the last post in isolation would certainly give me cause to think you're coming down on the side of "tab is evil", not in itself but because it creates lazy anti learning sentiment amongst the unenlightened.

If I write a song, I do it in tab and annotate as necessary so that I can read it as if it were notation - I include rests, repeats etc as much as I need to record the part, and will tab the guitar parts and bass parts as a "score". So although it might not be as good as standard notation it does do what you say it cant. Could other people read it - probably with some effort. Conversely, with standard notation there are techniques that I'm not sure how one would represent. How do you differentiate between a thumb slap, hammer on, pull off and picked note for instance.

[Raymondo]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1503661285' post='3360056']
I think you misunderstand. I didnt call anyone a snowflake. I simply used the term to allude to the nonsense concept of uninformed opinion being as equally valid as established and objective factual information - the "one true path grates".
That general vibe may not have been the motivation for the poster in question, but it is symptomatic. I suspect he was generally irked and defensive about educated musicians ultimately making the same point about TAB as he did: but, in contradiction, doesnt want to accept the blunt fact that standard notation is a better method to communicate musical information in a larger world. This "grates" and resulted (in Chris_b's words) with unrealistic claims about TAB usage/potential and incorrect observations concerning standard notation and common usage. Calling someone out on this using factual information may be blunt, but it certainly isnt venomous.
Nowt wrong with Mustang Sally or Moondance - in my career I've played much worse! Just dont go giving a dep the TAB for it on the gig. That might not work out
[/quote]

Fair enough.
I was trying to bring some levity to a thread that has rumbled on for three pages that seemed to be summed up in the OP and the first response

I do dislike this snowflake thing though,but that's probably because I am old and stuck in my ways.

Hat's off to those of you that can read the dots and well done to anyone else that has played music using any other method.

Oh and I have played worse than those two too............. giving me the tab or the dots would be a waste ...I am useless at reading both

[thepurpleblob]

There's nothing wrong with tab but plenty wrong with the quality of tab you find on the Interweb.

As long as you view it with a healthy cynicism you'll be fine. I very frequently get a bit stuck learning parts by ear and go looking for whatever clue I can use. The guitar chords, the bass tab, whatever. However, more often than not it represents an interpretation. As long as you know that.

I do find it slightly depressing watching someone covering (often very well) the bass part of some song on YouTube and there'll will always be a comment, "where did you get the tab for that?". Don't be that guy!!

Edited August 25, 2017 by thepurpleblob

[The Jaywalker]

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Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[ambient]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1503661838' post='3360064']
Conversely, with standard notation there are techniques that I'm not sure how one would represent. How do you differentiate between a thumb slap, hammer on, pull off and picked note for instance.
[/quote]

I had to notate an album of experimental/solo bass music for a project. Each chart was maybe 30 A4 pages long.

You can pretty much notate any technique. Thumb slaps tend to have a T above the note. I used a key that accompanied each chart.

[gapiro]

To sum it up.

[u]Tab[/u]

has no rythym notation *normally*
Plenty of people like it and find it useful , particularly for covers.
Lot slower for learning pieces
Useful for showing fingering
Useful for transposing parts easily

[u]Notation[/u]

Has rhythm on it
[u][b]Needed[/b][/u] if you want to take your musical career to certain places -> Cruise ships, Jazz (ish) , Musical Theatre, big band. a lot of dep gigs. (Basically, if you want to be a serious/professional full time musician rather than a hobbyist/weekend warrior or originals superstar who doesn't need to do other gigs....)
Not needed to be a good musician
Language that can communicate with other instruments


As a dot reader, i'm more than happy a lot of you have no interest in it. More gigs for me.
I personally found that my reading dot journey taught me a lot about rhythm that I just hadn't learned before from reading tab.

Edited August 25, 2017 by gapiro

[Dad3353]

[url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_musical_terms_used_in_English"]Wikipedia: List of Italian musical terms used in English ...[/url]

Not Latin, indeed, but it might as well be for lots of folks.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Dad3353

[Trueno]

Some musical expressions in German, too.

[Dad3353]

Anyone got a preference for 'Do Ré Mi' over C, D, E ..?

[The Jaywalker]

.

Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1503667509' post='3360162']
[url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_musical_terms_used_in_English"]Wikipedia: List of Italian musical terms used in English ...[/url]

Not Latin, indeed, but it might as well be for lots of folks.
[/quote]

These are commonly replaced with English in modern scores.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1503651608' post='3359906']
No, it couldnt. Categorically. TAB cannot be given to musicians as a notated part they are expected to perform in the manner of standard notation. Thats one if the most ridiculous notions I've ever heard.

Standard notation doesnt use Latin terms.

Annotations are common practice in arranging. Always have been.

Jazzers do not use the Nashville numbers system.

A "Tab Score" is a non-existent entity; score being the collated parts of a complete ensemble arrangement presented as a single entity on multiple staves.
(Caveat - I could be wrong here: perhaps piano/keys, drum, sax, trumpet, violin etc TAB also exists....erm...)
As previously intimated, giving someone a TAB "part" is never legitimate. TAB is both unfit - and unintended for - this purpose.

I'm glad you weren't "attacking dots" given the lack of knowledge displayed. Thats the issue here. A deep dislike of musical learning and any (perceived) hint that A may be better than B.

"there's only one true path" grates..."
Unfortunately, this isnt a matter of opinion. I don't do snowflake BS where everyone has a right to an equally valid opinion. You're wrong.

Why not follow your own advice and "just accept tab for what it does; limited, certainly, but fit for purpose for many musicians the world over..?" - ie, advice on where to put your fingers on a tune one is familiar with or listening to - rather than espousing uninformed and unreasoned arguments about its potential equal validity with standard notation because folks are somehow oppressing you with their different (valid and informed) opinions.
[/quote]

OTT This is what puts folk off score.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503676620' post='3360268']
These are commonly replaced with English in modern scores.
[/quote]

All around the world..?

[Rocker]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1503659578' post='3360035']


Which, I would respectfully suggest, makes it ideal for a large number of BC members...

Not wishing to labour the point, but not everybody wants or needs to be able to read dots. If that means they're less likely to be taken seriously as musicians by people who take themselves seriously as musicians, I rather suspect most won't worry unduly.



While I'm here, I seem to detect a hint of 'us-and-them' elitism creeping in here (which I have to say I've encountered before in my travels within the industry). People who can read and play to the standard expected of a professional musician have invariably worked hard over a long period of time to get where they are. That doesn't make it all right to be so dismissive of others who have got where they are by different routes (usually for a range of very good reasons). Basschat isn't a professional association, it's an internet forum for people with a shared interest.
[/quote]

Well said my friend. Your last sentence really nails what we are about here on BC.