Is TAB really that evil?

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1503678199' post='3360286']
All around the world..?
[/quote]

In modern scores that you would see as a jazz/theatre/cruise, etc player, absolutely*. Italian tends to be just for classical music, but even then... Allegro, Andante,... it's not that difficult.

*(English speaking countries obviously... In France they would probably be annotated in French.)

Edited August 25, 2017 by dlloyd

[Dad3353]

Just to show what the subject is, here's a BB King to play around with...

[attachment=252123:TheThrillIsGone.pdf]

(Download and change file name to 'TheThrillIsGone.pdf'...)

It looks like this ...




... but complete, of course. Purists won't be able to figure it out, maybe (although they could learn..?), but some of you might appreciate it.
Just sayin'.

[ambient]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1503688639' post='3360362']
Just to show what the subject is, here's a BB King to play around with...

[attachment=252123:TheThrillIsGone.pdf]

(Download and change file name to 'TheThrillIsGone.pdf'...)

It looks like this ...




... but complete, of course. Purists won't be able to figure it out, maybe (although they could learn..?), but some of you might appreciate it.
Just sayin'.
[/quote]

The main thing that people struggle with in reading notation is the rhythm.

That has rhythm, so why not go that teeny weeny little bit further and learn the notes too? Something that would take a few hours maximum to do.

Also, the bass part to that would mean absolutely nothing to someone playing anything but bass guitar. Whereas if it was written in standard notation, it would be something that anyone else would understand, keyboards/piano for instance. So they would be able to play the part.

Personally, I couldn't be less bothered what people use to be able to perform a part, I [b]can[/b] sight-read to a very good standard, i know that the chances of me turning up to play somewhere, and being given something like that are pretty much non-existent, but I can expect to turn up to a gig, and be given a notated part. So I'll get gigs that others won't .

I also know from experience that there are plenty of people out there, who have spent years getting by in music, who then decide that they want to 'do it properly'. That's a term that they use, not me by the way. I've lost count of the number of people who've said that to me.

Sight-reading is a skill, it needn't be hard to learn though. I've been teaching a guy who last week turned 80. In a little over a year, he knows all the notes on his fretboard, he can improvise from his real book, and can sight-read basic parts.

Edited August 25, 2017 by ambient

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1503688639' post='3360362']
Just to show what the subject is, here's a BB King to play around with...

[attachment=252123:TheThrillIsGone.pdf]

(Download and change file name to 'TheThrillIsGone.pdf'...)

It looks like this ...




... but complete, of course. Purists won't be able to figure it out, maybe (although they could learn..?), but some of you might appreciate it.
Just sayin'.
[/quote]

That's fine by me.

[Dad3353]

There are none so deaf as those who will not hear; so blind as those who will not see.

The question was, is TAB really that evil..? Not 'Is there more than TAB to those wishing to develop further..? Whether anyone is prepared to go that 'extra mile' is up to them. Is the TAB presented above playable or not by guitarists and bass players, that's all. No, it won't be much use to a trombonist, but that's not its purpose. The second guitar would pose problems for a flautist, anyway, as a flute is not a polyphonic instrument. Spurious arguments, each and every time. It does what it does as well as it's been written, just like dots. A badly-written score is a badly-written score. Badly-written TAB is badly written TAB. Well-written stuff, of either ilk, has its place in many people's world. Not everyone's; fine, but many. What is so difficult to accept..?

Edited August 25, 2017 by Dad3353

[ambient]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1503688639' post='3360362']
Purists won't be able to figure it out, maybe (although they could learn..?), but some of you might appreciate it.
Just sayin'.
[/quote]

Why wouldn't a 'purist' be able to figure it out?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1503690658' post='3360384']
Why wouldn't a 'purist' be able to figure it out?
[/quote]

Because, apparently, to purists, TAB cannot be worthy of study, and would be binned.

[ambient]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1503690475' post='3360381']
There are none so deaf as those who will not hear; so blind as those who will not see.

The question was, is TAB really that evil..? Not 'Is there more than TAB to those wishing to develop further..? Whether anyone is prepared to go that 'extra mile' is up to them. Is the TAB presented above playable or not by guitarists and bass players, that's all. No, it won't be much use to a trombonist, but that's not its purpose. The second guitar would pose problems for a flautist, anyway, as a flute is not a polyphonic instrument. Spurious arguments, each and every time. It does what it does as well as it's been written, just like dots. A badly-written score is a badly-written score. Badly-written TAB is badly written TAB. Well-written stuff, of either ilk, has its place in many people's world. Not everyone's; fine, but many. What is so difficult to accept..?
[/quote]

My point is why spend considerable time learning to play the rhythm, and not the notes? Given that the rhythm his what people struggle with.

A piece of notation would be able to be played by other instruments, because it conveys to anyone who can read music, what the note is, not just a fingering position.

[ambient]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1503690795' post='3360387']
Because, apparently, to purists, TAB cannot be worthy of study, and would be binned.
[/quote]

It's apparently notation that isn't worthy of study, not TAB.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1503690816' post='3360389']
My point is why spend considerable time learning to play the rhythm, and not the notes? Given that the rhythm his what people struggle with.

A piece of notation would be able to be played by other instruments, because it conveys to anyone who can read music, what the note is, not just a fingering position.
[/quote]

Once again, and not to labour the point (quoi que..!), YOU ARE RIGHT..! It would be advantageous to go that bit further, as you have done, and I, and many others. However, that's not the opinion of very many people..! For whatever reason (we've had eyesight mentioned, but constraints of time, lack of motivation, false perception... The list goes on...); some folks don't even get as far as TAB, for goodness sake. I'm not going to be the one preaching good habits (in this nor many other fields...), and, as a convinced anarchist, can readily accept the decision of others to do things the way they wish. Why stop there..? There are thousands of interesting subjects worthy of deeper study, if one only had the inclination. Some folks are well served and content with TAB. That's fine by me; good luck to 'em in their musical endeavours. Those that study further..? Good luck to them too, of course.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Dad3353

[Dad3353]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1503690880' post='3360390']
It's apparently notation that isn't worthy of study, not TAB.


[/quote]

To some, that's true, difficult as it may be to understand.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1503670862' post='3360199']
I havent seen any elitism at all. .
[/quote]

... on which point I fear we must agree to disagree. We can all cherry pick the bits from this thread that support our arguments, but I've encountered musical snobbery before and I know what it looks like. There's elements present from both sides of the argument in this thread.

As a tutor I would routinely work in whatever format seemed to best serve the interests of the person sat in front of me. Sometimes it involved dots, and sometimes it didn't.

Edited August 26, 2017 by leftybassman392

[Guest bassman7755]

It depends what you goal is. If its to find the quickest way to be able to play something then by all means use tab, youtube vids, whatever. If your looking to improve your ear the nothing beats working it out yourself.

Ultimately tab/vids etc are a quick fix whereas working something out yourself is an investment in your all round ability as a musician in addition to actually learning the song..

Edited August 25, 2017 by bassman7755

[TCsBass]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1503645617' post='3359854']
Rubbish!

You limit yourself. It isn't the tab's fault. You can get badly written score and all you know. I look at many sources of tab, not just one. I never rely on just one interpretation of a song. It would be daft to do so.

Another point. All you folk who are poo-pooing tab because it has no meter are living in the past. Tab can be written with tails on the numbers just the same as you can with dots.

Cuh!

Sorry for unloading on you TCsBass but I see a lot of pretentious crap being said by die-hard score users so it is important to redress the balance. There is a choice of ways to read and write music and they both work. That is all.
[/quote]

I'll give you an example... I recently flew to Seattle for a recording session and I could read fluently, whereas the guitarist was writing patterns of tab out ad infinitum. My tracks were done in a day and a half. I had three lovely days free to explore Washington State while the guitarist was still p*****g around. The simple difference was that I could sight read the parts and understand what the artist wanted there and then and didn't need to memorise anything.

So I'm not pooh-pooing tablature at all, merely stating a practical fact. People can do things whichever way and however they want to. I'm just lucky that I'm a classically trained musician, which gives me a massive advantage.

[ambient]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1503645617' post='3359854']

Another point. All you folk who are poo-pooing tab because it has no meter are living in the past. Tab can be written with tails on the numbers just the same as you can with dots.

[/quote]

So bearing in mind that reading rhythm is the hardest part of learning to sight-read, why not just go that little bit further and learn what the notes are on the stave? Or are you not 'sight-reading' the TAB?

Do you just learn the song from it?

It's a genuine question, I've never used TAB.

[Dad3353]

I don't think many people sight-read tab; I don't think many people sight-read dots, either. Experienced musicians, of course, but for most folks that can read music, it's a case of sitting down and deciphering, bar by bar, line by line. Reading a score is one thing, sight-reading in 'real time' whilst playing is an extension of that, but not that many attain that level, in my experience. It depends, of course, in which circles one gravitates, too..

[ambient]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1503705746' post='3360497']
I don't think many people sight-read tab; I don't think many people sight-read dots, either. Experienced musicians, of course, but for most folks that can read music, it's a case of sitting down and deciphering, bar by bar, line by line. Reading a score is one thing, sight-reading in 'real time' whilst playing is an extension of that, but not that many attain that level, in my experience. It depends, of course, in which circles one gravitates, too..
[/quote]

I can, that is to me at least what sight-reading is. If I'm doing a gig like I am this coming Sunday evening for example, the audience won't wait for me to sit down and decipher it.

Anyway, each to their own .

[Dad3353]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1503708184' post='3360505']
I can...
[/quote]

...which is good; very good indeed.
When I was drumming with variety bands (mid '70s...), I had to write out the drum parts myself, as they were simply not available. I've never, ever, been handed a drum part; still less asked to play one by sight. I wouldn't have been able to play reading 'real-time' anyway at gigs, however; not for lack of ability (I wrote the parts..!), simply the impracticality of having an A4 folder propped up beside the kit, all the while playing and paying attention to the MC and other musicians..! Most of the work was done at home, in practise sessions, going over the parts and more or less committing them to memory. At the gig, the folder would be there, propped up, but I'd have little time to do much more than turn to the right piece, a cursory glance and we're off on my count...
We all have differing needs and levels of experience, so it seems reasonable to me to have different styles and methods of coping with whatever we're doing. For some, a written score is a boon, to others it's a hindrance. As you say: to each his/her own.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Dad3353

[bazzbass]

wow didn't realise we had so many snobs on here.

Well I play only original music so I don't need anyone to write down what notes to play and what the rhythm is. I memorise it. I COMPOSE it all by myself. THERE.

that is aimed at the dot readers thinking they are better than anyone who doesn't read dots :0 tongue firmly in cheek

not saying my basslines are awesome, just that they're mine, with help from Sir Paul, JPJ, Geddy etc hehe

[chris_b]

I don't see snobbery here. It's basically a discussion about effective forms of communication.

I could read music, slowly, when I left school. It got me paid work in the beginning so that was good but I haven't done a reading gig since the early 70's. So sadly that's all gone now.

Looking at the TAB above, looks like someone is trying to address the shortcomings by adding all the missing musical information and in the process making it look so much like the dots. If you have to learn that much you might as well learn the final 10% and actually read the dots. If I get stuck on something I'll look at TAB sites for a clue, but I am so often disappointed that TAB fans do such a poor job of transcribing their music in this way.

Thinking original bass lines are better than covers bass lines. . . . now that really is snobbery in action. I play covers and originals. All covers start out as original songs so there is no difference between one or the other.

[Bilbo]

I use dots for study, for composing and for writing out charts for others to perform. I rarely read on a gig but can if I need to. Reading takes me to places I may not otherwise go. TAB is not something I have used in decades. Feels like a toy to me when compared to dots. Reading let's me interpret the music of others who may not be writing for my chosen instruments.

To quote Marcus Miller: 'why wouldn't you'?

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='TCsBass' timestamp='1503702124' post='3360482']
I'll give you an example... I recently flew to Seattle for a recording session and I could read fluently, whereas the guitarist was writing patterns of tab out ad infinitum. My tracks were done in a day and a half. I had three lovely days free to explore Washington State while the guitarist was still p*****g around. The simple difference was that I could sight read the parts and understand what the artist wanted there and then and didn't need to memorise anything.

So I'm not pooh-pooing tablature at all, merely stating a practical fact. People can do things whichever way and however they want to. I'm just lucky that I'm a classically trained musician, which gives me a massive advantage.
[/quote]

I will say again. I am not interested in arrangements or writing. I don't need score. Tab works well for me in comparison.

Your example is all very well but it is a situation that I will never encounter. I will therefore not be joining the elite any time soon.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1503703270' post='3360487']
So bearing in mind that reading rhythm is the hardest part of learning to sight-read, why not just go that little bit further and learn what the notes are on the stave?...
[/quote]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1503730982' post='3360539']
I use dots for study, for composing and for writing out charts for others to perform. I rarely read on a gig but can if I need to. Reading takes me to places I may not otherwise go. TAB is not something I have used in decades. Feels like a toy to me when compared to dots. Reading let's me interpret the music of others who may not be writing for my chosen instruments.

To quote Marcus Miller: 'why wouldn't you'?
[/quote]

In answer to both:

Because score is incomprehensible gibberish frankly.

[thepurpleblob]

I learned to read notation at school when I was about 9. I then played percussion in brass bands of all things where reading was pretty much a necessity. I've no recollection of ever finding it particularly difficult. Sight reading on the other hand is something else... it comes through a lot of experience as you don't have time to *think*. If I have to write out a bass part then it feels natural to use notation.

Reading notation is just a handy skill and closes some things off to you if you can't do it but it's no more elitist than being able to play slap (I can't!). If you don't have time or don't care then no big deal. Like many things, if you *really* need it then you'll know.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1503733944' post='3360565']
Because score is incomprehensible gibberish frankly.
[/quote]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1503730982' post='3360539']
]To quote Marcus Miller: 'why wouldn't you'?
[/quote]

I suppose its futile for me to point out that OP was in fact not asking about the relative merits of tab vs score but wanting opinions on tab as a learning device compared to working it out.